Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
User avatar
By buzzman
#83724
Does anyone have a Bendix King KLN 94 GPS in their aircraft.

I have a problem with mine in that it does not show CTR airspace. The map won't show London, Luton, Stansted or City CTR's = Big problem for me.

Honeywell say that only 2 or 3 people have ever shown concern about this and it may come along in future database releases. WHAT !!!!! The magazine adverts say the KLN94 is "IFR Certified" - How can it be with missing data?

Honeywell also say the KLN90B and KLN900 also omit CTR's in Europe.

I've heard it might be possible to resolve this with a certain software upgrade.

Does anyone know about this?
User avatar
By TC_LTN
#83725
I would say this is certainly worthy of a Mandatory Occurance Report. See http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/aic/4P015.PDF
Alan Evans started the ball rolling with an MOR about another manufacturers data and it took a long time to get a coherent response and action. More recent submissions by Air Traffic Service Providors have resulted in very quick action by the CAA and the relevent manufacturer.
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#83858
beech19a wrote:I have a KLN94 and only use it to run a KMD850


Majority ofl GA GPs have airspace problems - easiest way to check is to go in demo mode and fly down to see if there is an airway between Solent CTA andJersey Zone. Usually there isn't on the GPS, yet there is in reality. If that airway (N866) is missing, you've plenty of airspace missing elsewhere - its just the easiest to see clearly (I mean check clearly, you can't see if if its not there),
The problem is a design 'feechure' not missing data - reported in Flyer 3 years ago . If your GPS has a setup field asking 'width of airways in your FIR' or similiar, this is a manufacturers fix to try and get round the problem
User avatar
By TC_LTN
#83889
Irv Lee wrote:Majority ofl GA GPs have airspace problems - easiest way to check is to go in demo mode and fly down to see if there is an airway between Solent CTA andJersey Zone. Usually there isn't on the GPS, yet there is in reality. If that airway (N866) is missing, you've plenty of airspace missing elsewhere - its just the easiest to see clearly (I mean check clearly, you can't see if if its not there),
The problem is a design 'feechure' not missing data - reported in Flyer 3 years ago . If your GPS has a setup field asking 'width of airways in your FIR' or similiar, this is a manufacturers fix to try and get round the problem


IMHO if this is really the case then IFR approval of this kit should immediately be withdrawn pending a sensible fix.
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#83950
The known 'feechure' i pointed out usually only hits airways - usually if you have anything like an 'area' (eg TMA, CTRs, CTAs) missing, this is a database problem OR the user hasn't switched on that type of airspace in the setup OR possibly (like HIRTAs) the designers had never originally catered for them.

In the earlier days they also couldn't cope with the UK having Class A down to ground level either - therefore one main manufacturer showed Heathrow CTR and jersey CTR as Class D just to make them actually appear at all, and the other showed them as being there but as some underfined class. I haven't checked whether that has been fixed since the flyer article. Anyone with a recent GPS like to check the class of Heathrow CTR on it?
User avatar
By buzzman
#83952
Irv, the biggest missing features are London CTR, Luton CTR, City CTR etc etc. :!: I agree it's not good to be missing airways either but (London) CTR's? That's too fundamental?

beech19a, could you see if those are missing from yours. If not, would you please let me have the ORS and software version numbers you're using. Thanks. Mine appears to be showing CTA's, it's the CTR's it's missing out.

I don't know the precise definition of "IFR Certified" but can it be so certified with these omissions? Honeywell have told me they are likely to include them in future database cycles but they haven't told me when and it is therefore a deliberate omission.

Anyway, since they're using standard databases, maybe the data is there and the software is just limiting the display? Either way I think it's a major issue.
By Colonel Panic
#83958
TC_LTN wrote:IMHO if this is really the case then IFR approval of this kit should immediately be withdrawn pending a sensible fix.

I always though that whether or not a GPS unit was IFR approved or not had more to do with the RAIM software / accuracy of position etc that what pictures it drew on the screen.

Are there no IFR approved GPS units that don't feature moving maps?
User avatar
By buzzman
#83973
peter-h wrote:Buzzman

a KMD150 would be almost as good for a fraction of the price.
.


A Garmin GPS III has all London CTR's as does my backup Gamrin 295, both at a fraction of the price of the KLN94. Why is it that Bendix King cannot see the importance of their latest panel-mount moving map unit offering this most basic feature provided by the cheapest Garmin battery powered portable?
User avatar
By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#84058
buzzman wrote:Irv, the biggest missing features are London CTR, Luton CTR, City CTR etc etc. :!: I agree it's not good to be missing airways either but (London) CTR's? That's too fundamental?

.

Agree entirely - didn't mean anything else - jsut amking the point Map GPSs have had these sort of problems since hey cam in but some pilots just WILL NOT believe it.

When I did the 4 articles for Flyer, (2001?) just before the final one with the 'map errors' came out we got a letter from someone who had read the series so far. He said he flew everywhere on a GPS only and he offered to fly me anywhere in Europe for lunch without a chart and just his map GPS and he wouldn't have a problem.
Not being greedy and having just dicovered the missing airways problem, I chose Bournemouth to Cherbourg as I knew that would infringe N866. He must have checked a real chart as he never came back to us - so I did myself out of lunch. I should have chosen somewhere he would have won.
User avatar
By buzzman
#84133
I suppose that for many GPS systems internal memory capacity is a problem. Honeywell have a posting on their website (Wingman download area) explaining that due to the size of the current database they have omitted some inner ATZ rings in Eastern Europe and the Middle East on the KLN94. But this is their current top-of-the-line unit.

The CAA charts have accidental omissions i.e. Stokenchurch mast from the current Southern England 1:500,000.

But leaving out the London CTR's must have been a deliberate omission. I find it astonishing that someone at Honeywell said "Let's leave out (London) CTR's". Maybe they thought no-one would mind or notice.

So far I have had no further response from Honeywell. The guy I was e-mailing with has now gone on holiday.

In the meantime I'll use my Garmin portable. Although I'm still not convinced that the data is totally inaccessible.