Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Alastair
#5604
Being a good boy I trawled through the NOTAMs this morning and found (obligatory NOTAM whinge - amongst all the irrelevant stuff about airfields much further than 25nm away from EGLD) the following:

OTH : FROM 03/01/17 15:17 TO PERM B0148/03
E)FREQ 123.45MHZ NOT TO BE USED AS AN AIR TO AIR COMM CHANNEL WITHIN
RANGE OF ANY VHF GROUND STATION IN UK FIRS

Not that I have ever fealt the need to use it myself, but I wonder what has prompted them to put this in now? Interesting wording too - I suspect you would be hard pushed to find somewhere in the UK FIRs not in range of a VHF groundstation!

Ali
By Rupert S
#5605
Blame the americans if we must, but I still think it would be a good idea to use it. Especially useful at non radio aerodromes.
By Chris Scholfield
#5606
So 123.45 is no go for air to air but air to ground and ground to air will be OK then?
By Clive
#5607
Last time I heard this was the ground to air frequency of a Gas Platform off Gt Yarmouth.

Why the RCA would assign such a frequency is beyond me but they did.

I guess if it was your frequency and folk kept rabbiiting on it it would be a bit of a pain.

AOPA and the PFA are trying to get some dedicated air to air frequencies I believe. I fly a lot with other aircraft and we always use a chat frequency as it makes things more enjoyable and safer.

There are plently of other frequencies to try..............118.00 etc
By poetpilot
#5608
Why oh why oh why can we not have a UNICOM equivalent over here......

...oh yes, sorry I forgot. We are:

(a) over in Europe
(b) overcrowded
(c) over-regulated
(d) overcharged

When I last flew in the states, around the Boston area, I was using Plymouth municipal a BIG airfield by GA standards..... helis, SEPs, multis, bizjets, you name it, it was flying around... yet everyone got by on Unicom quite happily. Even with other Unicom fields within listening range, it works just fine.
By Bernie
#5609
Just what do the Radiocommunications Agency claim to do with our money, to supposedly safeguard our part of the spectrum?

And just why is it that a Gas Platform off Great Yarmouth, or any other commercial venture for that matter, should benefit from allocation of a 'private' frquency?!!!
By Irv Lee
#5610
Aren't there 'microlight' and 'glider' general frequencies or are these unofficial uses too? France uses 123.50 for GA as anyone doing an overhead join at Sondown often discovers.
By Umistim
#5611
Bernie asks 'what do Radio Communications Agency do with with the fees paid by radio licence holders'.
Mostly the income is spent paying the salaries of the people employed to keep the lists of licence holders and send reminders etc,. Oh, they do also publish a very grand in house glossy magazine which is very smug and self congratulatery telling all the staff what a grand job they do. There are some engineers employed to go and investigate frequency and interference reports which does of course justify the Land Rover Freelanders that they are issued with to do this. although mostly these frequency infringements are created by pirate radio stations that operate in and around the London area.
Bitter? Moi?
By Geoff
#5612
Oh dear what a lot of miss information.

Frequencies in the Aeronautical band are allocated by the CAA Department of Airspace Policy not the RA. Nothing whatsoever to do with the Americans!

Gas Platforms provide communications facilities for visiting helicopters just like any other aerodrome, it is not a private frequency!

The RA do an exccellent job regulating the entire radio spectrum, safeguarding frequencies from illegale users. See how many they aprehend every year. A visit to their annual Road Show is recommended.

The reason for the NOTAM is because certain people do not understand that you do not just grab any frequency and use it to chat with your mate! Unfortunately it is because of this mentality that the RA has to police the spectrum in the first place

Yes there is a good case for Unicom etc but to achieve it a lot of other frequencies would have to be withdrawn. The USA has the great advantage that it is geographhically bigger with less frequencies allocated in a given area.
By Chris Scholfield
#5613
I may be a bit dim (It is Monday after all) but why would a lot of other frequecies have to be withdrawn if 123.45 was the Unicom frequency? It seems to me that the gas platform would have to change so give them the Lands End frequency and we're off and running. After all our VHF sets are supposed not to vary from the tuned frequency are they?
By Harry Remmington
#5614
I wonder who Geoff works for?

123.45 has and is, a very useful frequency for use in situations where you need communication on matters that would be considered inappropriate for normal transmission.
In the middle of nowhere when you cannot contact a ground station a blind call on 123.45 will usually get a reply from "airways" above who can relay weather and other info.
Best of all, its a frequency that can be translated into any hand signal language and very easy to remember.....
By Mark A
#5615
I recently raised this topic with the CAA, who are aware of the use of 123.45 and the demand for a dedicated frequency. I don't think they'll mind if I attach their reply below.

I believe 123.5 is available for traffic calls at non-radio airfields, but don't have any source to confirm that. 123.50 is still used as an air-ground frequency at quite a few fields, and if used should always clearly state the airfield concerned. A call of downwind or 'final' might otherwise get heads turning at several different airfields.

I agree that a dedicated frequency for air to air use, combined with disciplined use would be of positive safety value, and we should encourage PFA, BMAA, AOPA etc to pursue it on our behalves.

____________________________

The use of the VHF Aeronautical Mobile Service frequency band (118-137MHz)
is defined in ICAO Annex 10 Vol V. The use of 123.45MHz for Air-to-Air
communications is restriced to use over remote and oceanic areas out of
range of VHF ground stations. It is not cleared for use as a general
Air-to-Air channel within the UK FIR or any other State within the European
region. In fact, there have been a number of complaints in the past about
the unauthorised use of 123.45MHz from operators who have legitimate
ground-station allocations on this frequency.

We are aware that there is a potential demand for an air-to-air channel for
formation flying. Individual frequency assignments for this purpose would
be extremely difficult to provide due to the high level of spectrum
congestion within our region. It may be possible, in the medium term, to
allocate a single dedicated frequency for use across the UK FIR. However,
it would be necessary first, to address any safety issues resulting from
such a multiple-access facility. I have already undertaken to discuss the
subject with our colleagues in the Safety Regulation Group and will happily
keep you informed of progress.

If you, or any user/interest group with which you are associated, are able
to provide me with further details of the requirement for an Air-to-Air
frequency, I'm sure it will assist the CAA in establishing the way forward.
My contact details are given below.


Yours sincerely,


John Banks
Frequency Manager, DAP (CAA)
By Alastair
#5616
Harry,

Isn't the FIR Information frequency (e.g. London Info or Scottish Info) the best place for "other info" such as this? True - you have to remember the frequency, and yes it tends to be over used by people trying to get a FIS from it (!), but I guess that will be the official response.

Ali
By Tailwheeler
#5618
Although the CAA Directorate of Aerospace Policy cannot find a natter frequency for GA they have been able to find THREE dedicated to gliders, despite the fact that there are less gliders registered than GA aircraft.

Aint life strange !

If we have agreed to the European Convention on Human Rights, including Freedom of Speach does that include the right to use the French assigned 123.5 if France is part of the EU ?

Is there a Human Rights lawyer who reads this and could comment ?