Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Clive
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038459
I've recently noticed my tinnitus that came when I was bedding in some new cylinders a few years ago is still being excited by flying even with my Lightspeed Zulu 3's. Having a few weeks off, then flying intensively excited the problem. Thankfully it's not bad and doesn't bother me much but at quiet times I'm conscious of it.

I started a discussion on the RV forum and got some feedback from others. One pilot uses some 3M ear defenders with some 'in ear ' style speakers and a self fitted microphone. He's achieved an impressive noise reduction.

I did some testing using a basic set up of my headset and others, Aerotion supplied a headset for testing and I used my son's Bose which is about 10 years old. The results of which I thought I'd share and welcome any comments as to any improvements there might be.

Posting 'I have this headset and don't have a problem' isn't a comment that is needed however. Further background is under the results.
Regards, Clive
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By steve-8321
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038461
What I have found over the years is that there is no "one-size-fits-all" solution - things that work really well for me don't always seem to work for other people.

I have a Clarity Aloft headset which I like and which works really well. A colleague has recently bought a Clarity Aloft after trying mine, but wears ear defenders over the top of it.

I also use CEP earpieces underneath a passive helmet when flying open cockpit - which works for me.

One low-cost thing to try would be disposable foam ear plugs under your headset. Some people think its great, and it only costs pennies to give it a go.
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By Clive
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038465
So my current solution, which is helping but isn't the silver bullet I'd hoped, is wearing ear plugs inside my Zulu 3's. The radio and headset controls have to be adjusted to compensate but it's a good interim solution and remarkably comfortable. The ear plugs are the highest quality for NR at 36db.
I've also extensively soundproofed my aircraft. Unlike a certified aircraft a Vans kit plane is a tin box which is exposed to the engine and exhaust and works like a drum to reflect the noise into the cabin. The insulation has made it possible to talk within the cabin without headsets. Older pilots will remember flying in a Cessna without headsets and a microphone on a cable.

Alas though, once one has tinnitus it's with you for life so I caution anyone to beware of the noise they are exposing their head to. I say head as I'm not convinced it's the ear canal that is the receptacle that we need to protect.

The damage was done back in 2019 when I used a passive Sennheiser, what I didn't notice was the gradual increase in noise. Put the headset on and start the engine and all is good, but when flying at high revs for a few hours that night I had this singing in my ears and although it fades it's been with me ever since. My hearing itself is good and not affected by the phenomena, I worked in industry for 40 years and was paranoid about hearing protection so was very annoyed to be cursed after I retired by my hobby.

I contacted a few of the manufacturers about their passive protection number. Bose didn't reply, Lightspeed said they don't bother with passive numbers and the only positive response was from Aerotion who I was looking at as they had good passive numbers in addition to the ANR option. Their product compares favourably with the expensive ones (those that are 3 times as much cost wise) but as my existing Lightspeeds won in my normal operating area of 2200 rpm.

Things I noticed:
With earplugs and ANR headset the most noticeable thing in my aircraft is the wind noise. this is higher frequency and I do wonder if the tinnitus, which is high pitched in nature for me, is actually excited by something I can't hear. The human ear only hears a certain band of frequencies. I'm going to look at the canopy sealing which is poor at best.
Headset fit to your head affects the amount of sound significantly, glasses are a consideration in this area.
The amount of passive insulation in the Bose and Lightspeed headsets is minimal. I am going to experiment with more passive insulation inside and outside the headset cups.
The Bose is 10 years old and so I'm sure there are improvements in their tech, I don't know anyone with a new Bose headset, everyone has Lightspeed at my airfield now because of a clear difference when we did some comparison a few years ago. So take the Bose numbers with the 10 year thing in mind, the Lightspeed zulu 3 must be 5 year old technology though.
I've now noticed the hedgetrimmer isn't helping even used with the top rated 3m ear defender and ear plugs!

The in aircraft testing is a best rudimentary but as all the protection was tested with the same way with the same equipment I think they are a good comparison.

Regards, Clive
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By Clive
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038466
Thanks Steve, I thought I'd put the rest of my rambling in another post so hadn't got round to explaining where I am with it. I'm fed up of postings crashing and losing my long winded typing. I was typing as you were. The earplugs are a benefit and I too looked at the Clarity aloft. They are a big expense though and as I was only going to be using them with ear defenders on top and was worried about how the wire support would affect the seal of the ear defenders? How do you find that works?
Thanks Clive
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By MattL
#2038469
I’ve literally just come out of a aviation medical lecture on noise and hearing damage! On thing that surprised me was that comms noise adds on average 15dB and apparently a lot of people even with hearing protection / ANR have the comms too loud and nullify a lot of the protection.

I fly with in ear CEPs under flying helmet for work stuff and Bose A20 otherwise. Ear plugs under headset was recommended as cheap and effective way of reducing some damaging frequencies.
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By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038473
I wonder about the ear cups.
Peltors, both passive and ANR, have ear cups that completely enclose my ears.
My Bose do not.
I’m in the habit of buying second hand original Peltors.

I too learned to fly in the C150, hand mike, and cockpit speaker. Bad idea.
Airlite headsets were an improvement.

The above figures for the Peltor ear defenders are reassuring.
I have a set of Peltor headsets with ANR using a short life 9 volt battery. They’re in the Aircoupe.
I like a spare set since the Bose has not been as reliable!

I have fitted ear plugs, the moulds were made from stuff squeezed into my ears thirty years ago.
I take these with me to places where the music is loud.

Gel seals work best when wearing glasses, I wear wire glasses to allow maximum range of sight.
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#2038476
Us motorcyclists spend far longer enduring the noise at speed than any flying time. I used to regularly ride for 6 hours continuous (5 of them on a motorway) on a bike with one of the quietest engines and a full fairing/windscreen. It was commented the next day that I was talking much louder than usual.
These days, many motorcyclists use earplugs under their helmets.
I also use earplugs in cinemas these days too for any films that include action; it seems OK to ramp up the volume to intolerable levels so that punters don't feel shy to buy and munch the edible merchandise.
Last edited by Boxkite on Fri Oct 11, 2024 10:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By aerial
#2038486
I do wonder sometimes about anr. If you have a 100db sound pressure in your ear the anr has to provide 100db in antiphase to cancel it out. It has to learn the sound frequencies and levels so it is possibly a bit behind the curve at times. At those times your ear will not be protected. Could it be that those short high level exposures might be causing hearing damage. Blacksmiths suffer badly because of the short high level sounds of their hammer blows. It would be good to know if any research has been carried out.
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By steve-8321
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038487
The Clarity Aloft headset uses CEP earplugs with a fancy wire frame to support a microphone:

https://www.cep-usa.com/dch-pdf

You could get the same effect by wearing CEPs under a standard passive headset. Putting ear defenders over a Clarity Aloft would be an expensive way of achieving the same effect.

Whenever I lend a headset to a student it always comes back with the volume turned up to max - I normally fly with the volume at minimum and my hearing isn't great after years of instructing so I'd echo the comments above about most people having the volume too high.
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038492
aerial wrote:It has to learn the sound frequencies and levels so it is possibly a bit behind the curve at times. At those times your ear will not be protected.


Maybe there are some that learn the sound pattern but in general they simply supply the opposite phase signal as you mentioned. It works well with low to middle frequencies but performance is generally poor at the top end - which is effectively “falling behind the curve”. As the sound wavelength approaches the internal diameter of the headset I guess it becomes impossible to regulate the sound pressure level that the ear drum receives.

Ear plugs inside a headset is counter-intuitive but sounds like a great idea.
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#2038500
After many years wearing Peltor headsets, sometimes for18 hours a bliddy day, in submarine machinery spaces (comms maintained via magnetic loop), I found that they were heavy, the gel seals leaked and the headband switch became faulty (activates them when worn). And, they were so big that you’d almost rip your ears off, give you a sore neck when trying to get your head into a difficult spot. They were not issued to individual personnel - you had to use the one that the greasy bugger before you wore.
I would not seek to eliminate all noise - you have got to listen out for potential failures - instrumentation will not warn of everything.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038502
Are Android decibel measuring apps at all reliable? I've used a couple and I get about 85 dB in the cruise in my AA5A, measured on two apps on my Galaxy S23.

As that's apparently about the threshold for hearing damage, I want to get some kind of ear protection for my young Jack Russell before taking him flying much.

But the notes above citing 100 dB vs 85 dB - a huge difference in loudness - make me wonder whether I'm in the right ballpark.

FWIW, in the cruise in my aircraft, without headset, the noise level is loud, but not painfully so, and conversation is possible with raised voices... not something I'd want for long mind you.

I've only ever used passive headsets (DC 13.4 for the last few years) and I don't get any during- or post-flight discomfort.
#2038511
Excellent post Clive, really interesting data.

Flying open cockpit (Tiger Moth with a not very effective windscreen) I use CEP under an Alpha helmet. I have had individual moldings made to my ears. This combination works fairly well (I don't have any numbers), but the real gotcha is when the mic opens up due to the airflow; this can get annoying at best.

To mitigate I turn the volume down on the helmet control and also, if necessary, on the intercomm volume control.

I have also fitted a small leather 'sock' over the mic's normal foam covering, and find this helps to reduce the amount the mic opens in the breeze.

Interestingly, I bought a Clarity Aloft but have never tried it! :shock: I should.
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By IO390
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038514
While flying yesterday, wearing my Halo in ear headset, I decided to stick my A30 on over the top just to see what it was like. Perhaps unsurprisingly it was extremely quiet - far quieter than with either just the Halo or A30. I think I'll use this combo for long trips in future.
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By Ridders
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#2038520
Thats an interesting combo. I have my Clarity Aloft and might give them a go with the bose A20s over the top of them.

One thing I really notice the difference on is the difference wearing sunglasses and a hat makes to the bose. The arms of the sunglasses defo make a difference to the overall sound ingress, and my good old jack browns baseball cap likewise, though to lesser extent. It sounds different without a hat.

Ive also noticed that the RV9 is a lot quieter than the Pup I used to have, its got a lot of sound deadening on the floor and also the exhausts are angled so they dont direct it to the underside.

Then again..according to my watch its about 100dB!