Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Rob S
#15317
Nothing at all except that the last few threads were about sunglasses. There is a link though - my sunglasses are old and look awful - like the Cherokee 6

Rob S
By Duncan
#15319
Wear Raybans and fly Cherokee 6!

I'll go and slash my wrists now then!
By Jeremy
#15321
110kts ILS cruiser,

I can assure you that a 150kt ILS in a light aircraft is not unusual. I would say that in the past year of flying 50% of my ILS approaches have been at "best speed". You do, of course, have the choice but if you are flying into (taking some of my recent examples) Geneva, or Brussels or Amsterdam or something like that then this is what you can expect.

If I have an inexperienced passenger then I routinely brief them on the gear warning horn. This is because my Seneca has a gear extension speed of 129kts. Once I get to the point where I can start to slow down (say 2 miles) I have to pretty much close the throttles in order to stay on the ILS (because I am probably still IMC) and slow down at all. This results in a loud, alarming and distracting gear warning until I get below 129 and drop the gear, at which point, with the addition of flap, getting back to 76 for the final approach is not too bad.

A recent exchange with a controller at Cardiff went something like this...."G-SENX what is your best speed"..."err how about 140"..."can you manage 160?"...."I'll do my best". Now, the seneca cruises with an IAS of between 140 and 160, so 160 is pretty quick, but when you're coming down the glide slope it's actually very easy and requires less than 20" MAP. On this occasion I made it but was nevertheless asked to expedite on the runway because a 757 (I think) was about to land on top of me. There were 4 aircraft being vectored to the ILS with me in the front! Its not so much a question of what the controller expects, just what is required in order to not conflict with other traffic.

It occurred to me, shortly after realising that this was not going to be unusual, that they should teach high speed ILS in the IR syllabus, but no doubt it's not recomended and is probably frowned upon for safety reasons - at least for us ordinary GA types.
By GG
#15322
110Kt Cruiser, why do you keep changing your name? Do you have something to hide?

At no point did I infer that I fly at those speeds on the ILS all of the time, or any of the time. My point is that a Bonanza 'can do that' which may be required in certain circumstances. Further more, I am an ordinary GA normally flying cross country at 155 - 160 kts (but not in the circuit).

Is this thread closed now?

GG
By Nigel Mansell
#15323
Would you like to reread what you wrote. The inference is clear to me. Otherwise what prompted you to write it in the first place!

"My F33A will cruise at 167Kts if I need to (faster than a Saratoga) and will land at 70kts in a 500 metre grass strip. If I need to mix it with the big boys it will shoot an ILS at 155kts and can drop the gear at 150 on short final."

Jeremy

If you would let us know when you're flying I'll make sure to stay on the ground. Never heard so much nonsense. And all that in a Seneca. You may have touched down in Holland somewhere but did you manage to stop in Europe. The normal ILS approach speed in a Seneca is 110kts like it or not. Best speed down the ILS is probably 120kts. Get a life boys
By Nigel Mansell
#15324
Oh and I almost forgot. 18-19inches (mostly) manifold will give you 110kts on the ILS
By 2Donkeys
#15325
I think you may be being a tad unfair on Jeremy.

It is perfectly possible to fly a Seneca down an ILS at 150 knots. A slightly slower more stabilised approach might be more desirable though. It is possible to go too far to please ATC ;-))

Even in bigger tin, it only normal to maintain 160 knots to 4 miles (or the OM), after then the speed comes back to Vat quite quickly.

If you find yourself pushed into flying much above 120 inside 4 miles, then something has gone wrong with ATC's tactical plan and a phone call to Tower once on the ground might be in order.
By A Right- Plonker
#15326
I'll go along with that 120kts inside 4 miles. Otherwise how can you compensate for the effect of wheels and flaps. In my experience a good controller is aware of the speed differentials and will compensate accordingly (onto the ILS)
By Jeremy
#15327
You're missing the point dear anonymous ones. It's not about pleasing ATC, or their ability to control the traffic, it's about getting on the ground without having to hold or execute a missed approach. I have at no time suggested that a fast ILS is necessary because of what ATC expect or need, it's simply the case that commercial traffic will always get priority and you may end up arriving for the ILS at the same time.

I've no doubt that a 150kt ILS is not recomended in a Seneca, but it really is not the big deal that you guys seem to think. With no flap or gear the Seneca will do 150kt quite easily whilst on the glide slope. This does not imply that you land at this speed. Its a gradual reduction of speed from the point where you intercept the glide slope. If you're still doing, say 150 at this point, then you set a normal power setting of something less than 20" and the speed will very gradually reduce. Once you get to 140 you select 1st stage of flap. That helps you get to 129 and then you drop the gear. During this part of the appraoch you need to pretty much close the throttles to get the speed down but it does work ok. The speed will then decay typically to about 100 or so. I tend to leave it like this until I'm visual, then I select full flap and trim for 76kts. What is it about this that you find so hard to accept? If you still can't accept it then perhaps you'd like to reveal your identity, send me an email and I'd be more than happy to demonstrate.
By 2Donkeys
#15328
Do you think that shock cooling is a risk during the part of the approach that you need to go to idle power.?
By Biggles
#15329
I don't believe that you can make an accurate ILS approach in the way you describe. I think what you are doing is a fast visual approach with the ILS frequency on Nav 1.

And I was just about to mention shock cooling also 2D beat me to it. I did my IR in a Seneca and it's not as easy as you make out. As soon as you lower flaps and wheels the pitch changes. More so when the speed is quick.

Anyway whats wrong with entering the hold if you can fly at the speeds you suggest there should be no prob holding and doing the procedure
By Sweep
#15330
Jeremy- your recent posting of ILS approaches (in a diferrent forum) is significantly different to the one you initially posted here. However, I still have some difficulty believing that you can accurately fly such an approach. I take it that you are not IRated. As you rightly mention doing things in such a rush may lead to a mistake like forgetting to lower the gear, or worse forgetting to set the altimeter correctly.

I apologise if my direct responses have caused offence. If you have limited IFR experience and are being pushed into flying beyond your limits by ATC then it is correct to reassess

Safe flying
By Martin P
#15331
Well Steve (the original subject poster) Did you get to try a Cherokee Six. If so what did you think?
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