Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Rjk983
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912700
Dominie wrote:That covers historic aircraft but what's the rule for Permit home builts (new or old)? This earlier thread viewtopic.php?f=1&t=118936 said that they are OK but a confirmation would be good!


second document in the post from Patowalker above. Seems fairly straightforward, there is a minimum number of hours and landing since first flight. Other restrictions too, but all seem fairly clear.

viewtopic.php?p=1912583#p1912583
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912720
patowalker wrote:
Irv Lee wrote:I was at an airfield listening to a local person who would definitely be believed telling pilots they could now go to France in that cessna parked there with a LAPL. When I said 'fraid not I was told I hadn't heard the latest change from a few weeks ago that the UK Lapl was allowed in France. Just morphed bolleaux


The DGAC is clear on the UK LAPL.


Yes, it is clear, (ie you cannot go to France in the usual Cessna 172 using a lapl without specific individual permission) but pointlessly clear in this case, as I doubt the guy being told he could fly his Cessna in France on a UK lapl would know where to look to find UK rules never mind French ones. He merely wanted someone to tell him he could. I eavesdropped further as he discussed this with his flying partner and it also became clear that he (the lapl holder) didn’t understand his lapl validity either and was almost certainly not valid even in the UK, ever mind double not valid by going to France.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912731
Flying_john wrote:
Kittyhawk wrote:I have a historic factory built Permit Jodel. A UK PPL, an LAPL, an NPPL, a LAPL medical and a PMD. Does any combination of this mean I can fly to France?


So is there a list of what is considered an historic factory built aeroplane that is allowed to be flown in France with a LAPL, NPPL or UK PPL with Med Dec ?


Yes, there is. Although EASA says:
Annex I aircraft
In the past, EASA produced a list of Annex I aircraft, strictly for information purposes only. This publication is now discontinued, as the full range of products for which EASA has responsibility has now been identified. ... thereby obviating the need for a list of aircraft for which EASA has no responsibility. Consequently, the list of Annex I aircraft has been removed from the EASA website.

the list is still available on the ENAC (Italian CAA) website.

https://www.enac.gov.it/sites/default/f ... 130907.pdf
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1914775
santon wrote:Hi

Is a PMD valid for any countries other than the UK , Channel Islands and France please? (eg. Ireland, Holland, Belgium, Germany)

Thanks


Definitely not in Ireland. https://www.iaa.ie/publications/docs/de ... w-licences

Use your own judgement on whether it is in Germany and The Netherlands. :)

https://www.dulv.de/Flugbetrieb/Informa ... ign_pilots

https://ec.europa.eu/growth/tools-datab ... =EN&dNum=2 Chapter 7 Article 50-4-e
By Kawaiuk
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1915020
Real good link to the DULV I'm hoping that my aircraft/licence/everything else, meets the criteria for entry according to the information.... intend to fly via France into Germany and Austria sometime in July In my Sportcruiser with PMD and NPPL SSEA I also have a microlight rating so between them all I should be OK. The German system seem to have the Bristell within their Ultralight category and the sportcruiser is amaturebuilt and a very similar design aircraft at the same MTOW 600kg
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1915334
The problem with the LAA asking the question is that it represents almost all UK homebuilt owners and would be bound to publish the clarification received, denying its members the choice of deciding for themselves whether a PMD was acceptable or not. A negative reply would close NL to many pilots.

In my view, the requirement for "a valid licence for the aircraft in question issued by a Member State of the European Civil Aviation Conference" cannot be challenged on the basis of some perceived anomaly. It is either valid in the UK, or it isn't, and I would be able to show that my licence is valid in the UK with a PMD.

Admittedly, my view may be influenced by half a lifetime in countries where you would be a fool to ask for clarification of rules or regulations. :)

I was pleased to see Ed Bellamy wrote
Returning to the PMD requirements, a side effect of the ECAC agreements and some national policies for microlights is that PMD may be permitted, on the basis that the pilot licensing privileges associated with the state of registry are accepted.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1915362
Pato, I may very well be too pessimistic with my concerns, but I would not want to encourage anyone to expose themselves to be the test case and find themselves in deep legal trouble and associated costs.

I know from own experience that 'the Dutch' interpret what is written in rules often as it suits, and that only after a long and arduous way things are corrected.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1915381
I would not want to encourage anybody to expose themselves either, FD, especially to the Dienst Luchtvaartpolitie. :D

However, I would not want anyone to consult the Ministry on this without framing the question with supporting arguments in such a way that there is a good chance of success.

I know one particular group of pilots has been advised that permission is required even for those with a UK LAPL and medical. An approach with that level of understanding is unlikely to prompt the desired response.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1915384
patowalker wrote:I know one particular group of pilots has been advised that permission is required even for those with a UK LAPL and medical. An approach with that level of understanding is unlikely to prompt the desired response.


Is it different the other way round?

Can a Dutch LAPL holder fly their EASA jalopy into the UK sans problemo?
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1915407
I was referring to a group that flies homebuilt aircraft.

Unlike the Dutch, German and French, the UK is silent on the subject of licences accepted on foreign registered homebuilt and historical aircraft. That does not mean national or EASA sub-ICAO licences are not accepted.
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