Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By MikeW
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912673
PhilS wrote:
MikeW wrote:With a certified Rotax you have to comply with their maintenance schedule e.g. replacing all rubber items* every 5 years. With Rotax supplying certified parts that's quite a bill, and then you add labour.

*all hoses, carburetter sockets, carb diaphragms and the fuel pump - that's upwards of £500 for a start, just parts


Many thanks - so some of the parts have a fixed life on CofA but not on Ptf, or at least not to the same extent?


Yes.
Rotax do propose the same schedule for an uncertified engine but on UK PtF it is not mandatory.
PhilS liked this
#1912683
If your LAA PtF aircraft is genuinely night/IFR capable (i.e. complies with the night and IFR parts of CS-23) then it should be relatively simple to get it approved.

If your PtF aircraft is Night/IFR approved the maintenance costs will be marginally higher than for VFR only. The additional costs are:

•Pitot-static system check with a licensed engineer every three years
•Avionics systems check with a licensed engineer every three years
•Battery (including back-ups) capacity check at each annual.

Probably adds £100-£200 per year in total.

P
PhilS liked this
User avatar
By russp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912782
Peter Kelly wrote:If your LAA PtF aircraft is genuinely night/IFR capable (i.e. complies with the night and IFR parts of CS-23) then it should be relatively simple to get it approved.
P


Simpleish but very very slow.. there is currently a huge backlog of IFR applications in the LAA and virtually no-one processing them. It's apparently a very slow and drawn out process currently getting an aircraft IFR rated with the LAA.
PhilS liked this
By peter-9363
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912914
Be very careful if you are considering a permit aircraft to buy one with an LAA permit rather than an EASA or CAA Permit. There is no saving with such a permit and even possibly an increased cost.
The only Rotax powered LAA aircraft approver for IFR is the Europa. Some other have not met the required standards.
PhilS liked this
By PhilS
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912987
peter-9363 wrote:Be very careful if you are considering a permit aircraft to buy one with an LAA permit rather than an EASA or CAA Permit. There is no saving with such a permit and even possibly an increased cost.
The only Rotax powered LAA aircraft approver for IFR is the Europa. Some other have not met the required standards.


I was wondering about EASA and CAA permits - many thanks, appreciate you pointing this out - I had no idea there were such differences.
By PhilS
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1916328
peter-9363 wrote:Be very careful if you are considering a permit aircraft to buy one with an LAA permit rather than an EASA or CAA Permit. There is no saving with such a permit and even possibly an increased cost.
The only Rotax powered LAA aircraft approver for IFR is the Europa. Some other have not met the required standards.


A quick question on a related theme - I’ve been looking at Piper Sport Cruisers, which have a CAA PtF rather than LAA PtF (at least anything I’ve seen so far). Can I still do my own maintenance on a CAA PtF aircraft, or is it very different from the LAA PtF?
#1916341
You can do your own maintenance if you agree which bits you can do with your CAMO and that they are happy to sign those off if they are satisfied with the work.

Pipersports are factory built aircraft that are operated on a CAA pft (formerly EASA ptf). The maintenance costs on these aircraft tend to be lower than for a CofA because the parts do not have to be certified and because they have a simple design. For instance the 12v battery is produced for a motorbike and costs about 60 quid.

There are some hassles, though. A CAA surveyor needs to issue a permit each year, most often with a field visit (although not always). This costs money and time. Since Brexit CAA pft aircraft are not permitted to overfly EU airspace unless permission is granted on an ad hoc basis country-by-country. This is a simple process for France and Germany. Not so for Netherlands. Of other countries I do not have any knowledge.

We operate a Pipersport and it is a fabulous aircraft. There are very few of them flying here, though. The PS28 is the currently-produced factory version, which is operated on a restricted type certificate. It depends on your mission as to whether one of these types of a/c would suit you but we are very happy with the Pipersport in our (four person) group. Happy to chat if you DM me.
PhilS liked this
User avatar
By TheFarmer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1916561
This thread needs perspective.

As you get older, you realise a £5,000 watch and a £25 watch both tell the same time. A Gucci wallet and a Tesco wallet both hold the same amount of money. A £200,000 house and a £1,500,000 house both host the same amount of loneliness at times. A Range Rover won’t drive you any further than a Vauxhall.

True happiness is not found in shallow and materialistic things.

It comes from quality avionics, a recent engine overhaul, an iPad running SkyDemon, and full tanks of AvGas.

Fact.

:D
Nick, Ibra, Shoestring Flyer and 7 others liked this
By PhilS
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1917003
TheFarmer wrote:This thread needs perspective.

As you get older, you realise a £5,000 watch and a £25 watch both tell the same time. A Gucci wallet and a Tesco wallet both hold the same amount of money. A £200,000 house and a £1,500,000 house both host the same amount of loneliness at times. A Range Rover won’t drive you any further than a Vauxhall.

True happiness is not found in shallow and materialistic things.

It comes from quality avionics, a recent engine overhaul, an iPad running SkyDemon, and full tanks of AvGas.

Fact.

:D


Nicely put!

Only one thing I would change:

It comes from quality avionics, a recent engine overhaul, an iPad running SkyDemon, and full tanks of AvGas/Mogas.

:D

This thread has been incredibly helpful. Buying one’s first aircraft is a daunting experience - so many things to consider and so many aspects of ownership I don’t even know that I should be considering! Getting there and enjoying the learning experience!
#1917620
Another factor is engineer availability and location. If you do your own maintenance then you can fix on the day. If paying a pro they may not be available for weeks and you may have to pay their travel costs /time to get to site. You may also find it impossible to find anyone local who will work on the plane. As an example we are based at Staverton, and there is no one resident on site who is happy to work on a C42 !!

I maintain a syndicate C42 and it does fly more than any other non school aircraft based in our hangar. Yes its had lots of minor repairs and new oily bits, but In 2 1/2 years we have only been grounded for a few days, and this was waiting for a man to rebuild our gearbox (I wasnt happy with vibration so we did the 600 hour gearbox service early).

Also when you have been maintaining a plane/engine, you soon get a feel for what sort of thing can and does go wrong and keep a small stock of "consumable spares". This is typically brake pads/tyres/fuel hose/cowling fasteners/exhaust springs/etc
By peter-9363
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1927664
Bit late but ... I hope your search has been successful, if it has not I would strong recommend you get a "pre-buy" inspection from a knowledgeable maintenance company. It may seem expensive but you are already considering spending several £££ tens of thousands. I have seem many pilots buy aircraft that had significant physical or paperwork problems that cost "a lot" of time, energy, grief and money to sort out. Most of them would have been clear on a pre-buy. The current market has few good quality aircraft for sale. With an appropriate price adjustment a deal can sometimes be done on an aircraft with problems, but the problems have to be discovered in the first place. New pilots are often seduced by shiny paintwork, wizened engineers should be able to look below the surface and guide the new owner.