Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Smaragd
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911592
Iceman wrote:Class 2 @letpmar.

Iceman 8)


Surely it depends what you are flying and where. In France , for an aircraft covered by ECAC agreement (eg most LAA permit aircraft) whatever licence/medical combination is valid for the aircraft in the UK is valid (even a PMD!).
Last edited by Smaragd on Mon May 16, 2022 8:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911595
Smaragd wrote:Surely it depends what you are flying and where. In France (and some other countries), for an aircraft covered by ECAC agreement (eg most LAA permit aircraft) whatever licence/medical combination is valid for the aircraft in the UK is valid (even a PMD!).


Pray tell which other countries accept whatever licence medical combination is valid for the aircraft in the UK.
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By Smaragd
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911604
Sorry, I meant to put a question mark after "some other countries" because I didn't have time to check what other ECAC countries are saying. I've deleted it now. However my point was that Iceman's reply was not universally true.
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By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911610
I found other signatories of the ECAC agreements are silent on the matter of licences and medicals. This is unfortunate, because the French rules make absolute sense. If a national PtF aircraft is acceptable, why not a national licence and medical to fly it? The irony of it is that many countries grant that priviledge to microlight pilots, even in the 600kg category.
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By russp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911614
patowalker wrote:
Smaragd wrote:Surely it depends what you are flying and where. In France (and some other countries), for an aircraft covered by ECAC agreement (eg most LAA permit aircraft) whatever licence/medical combination is valid for the aircraft in the UK is valid (even a PMD!).


Pray tell which other countries accept whatever licence medical combination is valid for the aircraft in the UK.


Although this ECAC document isn't authorative it is the best I've found so far and the clear implication is that the ECAC agreement allows 'whatever licence/medical combination is valid for the aircraft in the UK is valid' - see the notes section for Ireland which states that the ECAC agreement doesn't cover Pilot Licencing. The recomendation clearly states 'without any other restrictions other than those stated in the CoA or PtF' - there would appear to be no reason to think this doesnt also cover Licence / Medical requirements unless specificaly excepted as in the case of Ireland

ECAC news post -- https://www.ecac-ceac.org/activities/safety/ecac-recommendations-on-home-built-1980-and-historical-2016-aircraft

ECAC agreement -- https://www.ecac-ceac.org/images/documents/ECAC-Recommendation_1_1980_Home-Built_Aircraft.pdf

ECAC survey of all members requirements -- https://www.ecac-ceac.org/images/activities/safety/Survey_Results_Implementation_status_of_ECAC_Recommendation_on_home-built_aircraft_1980.pdf

It is however about time the LAA as the member organisation representing these aircraft took it upon themselves to contact the relevant authorities in European countries and clarified this mess.. unless it's a case of don't ask a question if you might not like the answer.. and better to ask forgiveness than permission.
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By russp
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#1911627
patowalker wrote:You cannot rely on what the ECAC recommendations say, you have to go to the relative AIP and see how each country implemented them.


I'd agree on the relying bit but the survey done was requests direct to each countries aviation authority by the ECAC to clarify how the country had implemented them so it should be mostly correct and any direct request to that authority 'should' confirm the results in the table.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911640
russp wrote:The recomendation clearly states 'without any other restrictions other than those stated in the CoA or PtF' - there would appear to be no reason to think this doesnt also cover Licence / Medical requirements unless specificaly excepted as in the case of Ireland.


I think that is a fanciful interpretation of the wording. It refers solely to the Operating Limitations listed on the CofA or PtF.
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By russp
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#1911652
patowalker wrote:
russp wrote:The recomendation clearly states 'without any other restrictions other than those stated in the CoA or PtF' - there would appear to be no reason to think this doesnt also cover Licence / Medical requirements unless specificaly excepted as in the case of Ireland.


I think that is a fanciful interpretation of the wording. It refers solely to the Operating Limitations listed on the CofA or PtF.


So why would the notes make particular reference to the agreement not covering Licencing for Ireland (where we know it doesn't) but no other countries unless the agreement did in fact cover licencing - if the agreement wasn't designed to cover licencing at all it simply wouldn't mention the Irish licencing requirements as that wouldn't be relevant to the question about how the agreement was being applied by the different European countries . It doesnt seem fanciful at all - rather a logical conclusion.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911655
russp wrote:So why would the notes make particular reference to the agreement not covering Licencing for Ireland (where we know it doesn't) but no other countries unless the agreement did in fact cover licencing - if the agreement wasn't designed to cover licencing at all it simply wouldn't mention the Irish licencing requirements as that wouldn't be relevant to the question about how the agreement was being applied by the different European countries . It doesnt seem fanciful at all - rather a logical conclusion.


Are you going to wave that survey when you are ramp checked abroad and point to the Irish exception? I suggest you check local regulations before assuming what is valid in the UK is valid in ECAC member states.

For example, this is how the homebuilt recommendation was implemented by the IAA.
(d) The pilot flying must hold a current licence, valid for use in Ireland or validated for use in Ireland by the IAA

Validation is covered [urlhttps://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-source/publications/aeronautical-notices/p---personnel-licensing/an-p21-3.pdf?sfvrsn=24ac0df3_8]here[/url].
c. the valid medical certificate required by the state of issue, but in any case where no such
certificate is required or where the certificate required is not an ICAO Class 2 or an EU Part-MED
LAPL medical certificate, a minimum of an ICAO Class 2 medical certificate or an EU Part-MED
LAPL medical certificate;

So PMD not acceptable in Ireland.
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By russp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911656
patowalker wrote:
russp wrote:So why would the notes make particular reference to the agreement not covering Licencing for Ireland (where we know it doesn't) but no other countries unless the agreement did in fact cover licencing - if the agreement wasn't designed to cover licencing at all it simply wouldn't mention the Irish licencing requirements as that wouldn't be relevant to the question about how the agreement was being applied by the different European countries . It doesnt seem fanciful at all - rather a logical conclusion.


Are you going to wave that survey when you are ramp checked abroad and point to the Irish exception? I suggest you check local regulations before assuming what is valid in the UK is valid in ECAC member states.

For example, this is how the homebuilt recommendation was implemented by the IAA.
(d) The pilot flying must hold a current licence, valid for use in Ireland or validated for use in Ireland by the IAA

Validation is covered [urlhttps://www.iaa.ie/docs/default-source/publications/aeronautical-notices/p---personnel-licensing/an-p21-3.pdf?sfvrsn=24ac0df3_8]here[/url].
c. the valid medical certificate required by the state of issue, but in any case where no such
certificate is required or where the certificate required is not an ICAO Class 2 or an EU Part-MED
LAPL medical certificate, a minimum of an ICAO Class 2 medical certificate or an EU Part-MED
LAPL medical certificate;

So PMD not acceptable in Ireland.


I thought we'd already agreed that it wasn't definitive and that individual regs needed checking ? but that thing from Ireland is what the list from the ECAC effectively says.. so it's likely that the rest of it is mostly correct. (and FWIW I dont think a UK LAPL medical is valid in Eire either since Brexit - UK pilots need a class2 ). I'd point to the bit that says 'without ANY restrictions other than... ' but I do accept that the logical conclusion is not always the correct one for Air Law which is why I suggested that the LAA should be addressing the whole mess with the relevant overseas authorities as our representative body.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911659
To turn your argument on its head, if the agreement covers licencing, why do the French need this?
Article 4
The pilot shall hold a pilot’s licence and associated qualifications entitling him to fly this
aircraft, issued either by the State of registration or an organisation with a delegation by the
said State, or validated or accepted by the said State.