Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By Paul Stout
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910645
Hi

Looking at moving from an Warrior to an TB10, would welcome comments on the differences between the 2 types and any things to watch out for on the TB10

The TB10 has a variable prop


Regards Paul
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910646
The TB range of aeroplanes has a lot of space, and the two doors is a much better arrangement than the one door on the PA28 series.

There are a couple of points to consider:

Parts for the TBs are a lot more expensive and at times more difficult to get than those for the Pipers
The doors are more vulnerable to being caught by the wind than the PA28 door
The TB10 is a bit of a ground hog on the take off roll than the PA28
The VP Prop on the TB10 does make maintenance more expensive for not an awful lot of performance gain.

The TBs are a lot more spacious and I think a lot more comfortable for longer trips than the PA28.

Never flown a TB-9 (with the 160 hp engine) A few hours on the TB10 - pleasant with the above in mind, and a fair few hours in the TB20 - best of the bunch due to the bigger engine and RG which makes them a lot faster.

Enjoy!

PS in the earlier models the fuel gauges are pretty useless, they wobble up and down, apparently at will!).

Dipping of tanks difficult due to dihedral which means that unless they are near full you cannot see the fuel, so fuel calcs are what is called for (and that is best practise anyway!)
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910655
I’ve flown and instructed and flown quite a lot of hours in both types.

In addition to what Frank said,

What kind of airfields do you want use - with what kind of loads?
If you want to use grass runways of anything less than say 750-800m - choose the PA28.
The TB 10 does not like short fields.

In a PA 28 you can rotate at 60 and climb out at 60-65 to clear an obstacle.
The TB10 will rotate and lift off at 60-65 - but it won’t climb at that speed. You need to accelerate in ground effect to at least 80 - 85kts before it will climb. This really does take up a lot of runway.

The TB has a much smaller wing - and a higher wing loading - meaning it handles turbulence better than the PA28.

The TB10 is more spacious and generally more comfortable than the PA28. However if you have short legs and a long trunk - chose the PA 28.
The front seats in the TB10 are mounted on a ramp mechanism whereby the seat height rises a lot when you slide it forwards. So if you have a longish body and short legs, you might find that you are bashing your head on the inside of the roof. I, and several people I know, have to fly the TB with our heads tilted to one side. The upside is that this is only for t/off and landing, as you can slide your seat back a bit once airborne and you no longer full rudder pedal travel.

Airframe parts can be hard to find and expensive. TB owners report difficulty in getting undercarriage and wing components. The TB10 has a history of wing spar corrosion - and there are no spares. One lovely Waltham based TB10 was scrapped 3 years because the spar was corroded and after a two year search, no replacement spar could be found. At least one spar was found but whilst it was identical, it came from younger serial number and Socata, who are the design authority, refused to authorise the spar to be used.

Just my opinion.
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910656
Lefty wrote:
> I’ve flown and instructed and flown quite a lot of hours in both types.
>
> In addition to what Frank said,
>
> What kind of airfields do you want use - with what kind of loads?
> If you want to use grass runways of anything less than say 750-800m -
> choose the PA28.
> The TB 10 does not like short fields.
>
> In a PA 28 you can rotate at 60 and climb out at 60-65 to clear an
> obstacle.
> The TB10 will rotate and lift off at 60-65 - but it won’t climb at that
> speed. You need to accelerate in ground effect to at least 80 - 85kts
> before it will climb. This really does take up a lot of runway.
>
> The TB has a much smaller wing - and a higher wing loading - meaning it
> handles turbulence better than the PA28.
>
> The TB10 is more spacious and generally more comfortable than the PA28.
> However if you have short legs and a long trunk - chose the PA 28.
> The front seats in the TB10 are mounted on a ramp mechanism whereby the
> seat height rises a lot when you slide it forwards. So if you have a
> longish body and short legs, you might find that you are bashing your head
> on the inside of the roof. I, and several people I know, have to fly the
> TB with our heads tilted to one side. The upside is that this is only for
> t/off and landing, as you can slide your seat back a bit once airborne and
> you no longer full rudder pedal travel.
>
> Airframe parts can be hard to find and expensive. TB owners report
> difficulty in getting undercarriage and wing components. The TB10 has a
> history of wing spar corrosion - and there are no spares. One lovely
> Waltham based TB10 was scrapped 3 years because the spar was corroded and
> after a two year search, no replacement spar could be found. At least one
> spar was found but whilst it was identical, it came from younger serial
> number and Socata, who are the design authority, refused to authorise the
> spar to be used.
>
> Just my opinion.

Re the fuel tanks, some serial numbers have a “dipstick” fitted to the back wall of the tank which can be seen / read through the open filler. However it is difficult to see and I had looked at it dozens of times before someone shone a torch into the tank. Once you know it’s there, you can usually see it without a torch,
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By defcribed
#1910764
Performance is a compromise. The TB10 has a considerably wider cabin than the PA28, and it depends which PA28 you're comparing it to. It's noticeably faster than a -160 and only a little faster than a -180.

Then confuse yourself with the fact that many PA28 drivers claim surprisingly high cruise speeds and then when you get in an aeroplane with them you discover they set 2600rpm as cruise power! The TB10 generally does 108-110 KIAS (23", 2400rpm) at low level.

I don't recognise needing 80-85 knots to climb away, even at MTOW. People load them beyond MTOW - perhaps kidding themselves they're within MTOW - and they are tolerant of it, but performance will suffer. I tend to ease it off at about 65-70KIAS and climb away initially at 75KIAS before retracting the flaps once I have a safe height and have lowered the nose slightly for 80KIAS. The book says rotate at 63KIAS and climb at 73KIAS, which works well enough on tarmac. On grass (particularly at Waltham) one is generally thrown into the air at some point whether going fast enough or not, so it's a fairly imprecise game. Of course if you unstick it at minimum flying speed (the sort of speed a PA28 will rotate and climb at, 57-60KIAS) then your TB10 may get stuck in ground effect and need to go that little bit faster to escape it.

On the whole they do need more runway than a PA28, but the difference is not enormous. I would say that it's grass it dislikes, rather than a short distance. I find that on tarmac it is off pretty quickly, but grass seems to make a big difference.

I don't recognise what Frank says about the fuel tanks - I can see the level down to empty. There is a very good set of markings on the inside of the tank - and yes getting your eye in the right place (and shielded from sunlight) to read it requires a little practice - but it is marked with several graduations (I think 15L, 30L, 60L, 80L) allowing you to fuel it quite accurately. Far more accurate than just 'tabs' and guesstimating anything above or below that.

The 'parts expensive and difficult' is a common statement. I've never seen any evidence of it and have sourced quite a few parts for ours. You can get almost anything from Troyes Aviation or Socata themselves and of course you pay a lot for things that don't cost much to manufacture, but this is aviation and that's the way it is - Piper/Cessna parts aren't cheap either. The sentiment about parts probably comes from engineering shops who do 99% Piper/Cessna and thus don't know where to go for parts for anything else. If your engineers go to their usual Piper parts specialist asking for Socata parts then it'll result in longer lead times and higher prices for you - no surprise because it's adding a totally unnecessary step in the process. What your engineers should be doing is going directly to the right place.
By PA28
#1910796
I can't help much since I haven't flown any of the TB series.
If you haven't already had differences training for a VP prop you will require this with an instructor's signature in your logbook.
Watch out for carb icing which is easily missed with a VP prop.
As others have said a higher wing loading with the reluctance to want to climb at slow speeds when on the back of the drag curve.
By PA28
#1910802
PA28-161;
Wing loading 14.4 lb/sq ft
Power loading 15.3 lb/hp

TB10;
Wing loading 19.8 lb/sq ft
Power loading 14.1 lb/hp.
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By lutonwho
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1910966
I learned to fly in a Warrior and flew one for a few years and I now fly a TB10. The earlier TB10’s don’t have internal dipsticks, so dipping the tanks is the preferred method of fuel measurement. There are no tabs, which I used to find very useful in the Warrior. The 2 doors are definitely a plus over the warrior, as is the larger internal space. The VP prop is easy to master. We’ve never had real problem with parts and in addition to the suppliers mentioned earlier, Cavendish Aviation at Earle’s Colne are TB 10 specialists and very helpful. I totally agree with defcribed regarding the TB10’s performance on grass v tarmac. I can easily get in and out of the 400 M tarmac at Beccles, but for grass I prefer 700 M. The TB10 is very stable, and has great cross wind capability. The TB10 is a far superior touring aeroplane, in my opinion, but for bimbling, and local flying the Warrior is better.. For fuel planning purposes I use 40litres per hour, in reality, it is much closer to 30 litres per hour, (economy cruise) from memory, very similar to the Warrior. As mentioned before, some of the gauges in the TB10 are not easy to read at a glance, much better in the Warrior, (T’s and P’s), but it does become easier with practice. LW.