Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1910241
I might not have had to post this if I could find the forum search facility.
Can anyone bring me up to speed (even a slow speed) on 'what were EASA permit aircraft' please?
My assumptions/guesses, with no actually firm proof in my hand, are:
1) They still exist and are called part21 permits.
2) They are 'looked after' by the LAA but are still a separate 'entity' to normal national permits.
3) They can go out of the UK under the same basis as a more normal national permit aircraft could.
4) the French allowance for permit aircraft to be flown by less that ICAO licence/medical paperwork for 28 days does not apply as they are all manufactured (is that last bit true too?)

Please correct the above as necessary.
#1910247
This opinion is worth what you paid for it.

1) They still exist and are called part21 permits.

They are CAA restricted CofA

2) They are 'looked after' by the LAA but are still a separate 'entity' to normal national permits.

They are looked after by CAA

3) They can go out of the UK under the same basis as a more normal national permit aircraft could.

Depends on the regulations of each country. They are not covered by ECAC recommendations on homebuilt or historic aircraft. However, temporary permits may be obtained from foreign NAAs on request. A fee may be involved.

4) the French allowance for permit aircraft to be flown by less that ICAO licence/medical paperwork for 28 days does not apply as they are all manufactured (is that last bit true too?)

That only applies to homebuilt and historic aircraft. Permission for other permit aircraft can be obtained at a cost of 50 euros.
https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/sites/defa ... /LP6-2.doc
Note: "DGAC permit-to-fly is issued without prejudice to any applicable regulations other than airworthiness (including operational, crew licensing and airspace regulations)."
Edward Bellamy liked this
#1910266
There is a set of aircraft which hold EASA Permanent Permits to Fly.

Around 100 or so aircraft in the UK were meant to get EASA Restricted Type Certificates but EASA bottled it when they failed to set up a certification process in time and came up with a fudge for them to carry on flying.

When the UK left EASA, suddenly those permanent permits weren't so permanent. Almost a case for legal action, although I think their get out clause is non-compliance with flight conditions due to aircraft no longer being maintained to EASA standards.

But in all cases the CAA issue the permit and continute to do so until at least December 2022. After that, who knows. So far the CAA have proved friendly enough and getting the permit is no harder than any other regime.

Last time I checked, aircraft in this set can be used for training.

Unlike LAA aircraft, there are no national exemptions for France / Germany etc - individual permission is necessary.
#1910282
[img]https://i.imgur.com/q1JmBcd.jpg[/img]
The link above is a (redacted) copy of the permit for my Bolkow Junior which was previously on an EASA permit administered by the LAA and is now, as far as I know a CAA permit adminstered by the LAA. Hope that helps.

I don't believe I can take it abroad without a Class 2 medical, an ICAO compliant PPL, (which I have) and permission from each individual state I wish to visit, (which I have not) but I am happy to be corrected.
Last edited by Dodo on Fri May 06, 2022 11:15 am, edited 1 time in total.
#1910289
"There are currently eight BO-208 operating on LAA-administered EASA Permits to Fly,
out of a total of 17 aircraft that are on the UK register. Two of the LAA-administered
aircraft are BO-208A2, the remainder being of the BO-208C type which incorporated a
number of changes and have a slightly increased MTWA. The BO-208s that are currently
administered by the LAA do so through grandfather rights. It is unlikely that further
aircraft will be allowed to transfer to LAA-administered EASA Permits to Fly whilst the
type remains as a supported certified type."

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co. ... %20208.pdf
#1910986
Pete L wrote:
> There is a set of aircraft which hold EASA Permanent Permits to Fly.
>
> Around 100 or so aircraft in the UK were meant to get EASA Restricted Type
> Certificates but EASA bottled it when they failed to set up a certification
> process in time and came up with a fudge for them to carry on flying.
>
> When the UK left EASA, suddenly those permanent permits weren't so
> permanent. Almost a case for legal action, although I think their get out
> clause is non-compliance with flight conditions due to aircraft no longer
> being maintained to EASA standards.
>
> But in all cases the CAA issue the permit and continute to do so until at
> least December 2022. After that, who knows. So far the CAA have proved
> friendly enough and getting the permit is no harder than any other regime.
>
> Last time I checked, aircraft in this set can be used for training.
>
> Unlike LAA aircraft, there are no national exemptions for France / Germany
> etc - individual permission is necessary.

We own an ex-EASA PtF aircraft and it's just as Pete L describes. The CAA issued the annual revalidation for the EASA permit anyway so in practice that bit hasn't changed now it's a CAA PtF.
The only problem, which hopefully will be resolved eventually, is that the CAA/DfT/government forgot to include this category in the Brexit agreements with EASA and don't seem in any hurry to fix that. I've been told there's a bilateral agreement with France but don't know of a reference for it.
#1910990
There is no bilateral agreement with France on UK CAA Permit to Fly or UK CAA Restricted CofA aircraft.

France replaced all bilateral agreements, none of which applied to those aircraft anyway, with the present regulations in 2018. The UK was excluded temporarily in the first quarter of 2021.

https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/en/node/275
Kemble Pitts liked this
#1911667
Irv Lee wrote:1) They still exist and are called part21 permits.
2) They are 'looked after' by the LAA but are still a separate 'entity' to normal national permits.
3) They can go out of the UK under the same basis as a more normal national permit aircraft could.
4) the French allowance for permit aircraft to be flown by less that ICAO licence/medical paperwork for 28 days does not apply as they are all manufactured (is that last bit true too?)


A few years ago EASA allowed some factories without a production approval to build, and sell, complete aircraft (mostly 600kg/LSA types) without a type certificate/CofA. They were given EASA issued Permits to fly that (in the UK) must be renewed by a CAA Surveyor (cost around £500 to CAA) each year. The maintenance organisation may charge for hosting the surveyor for a few hours. The paperwork required for these aircraft is different from a Pt21 aircraft (and different from an LAA Permit), so many maintenance organisations wont touch them. The person signing for the aircraft needs specific approval for each type (£200 per year), or the organisation needs an A3-7 approval. These aircraft have nothing to do with LAA aircraft (although they often look very similar) and are much more tightly regulated, probably more tightly than Pt 21 a/c. The Permit Conditions are issued to the individual owner and must be re-issued by the national regulator on change of ownership.

The regulator could give in and allow a more lenient system but then the companies that have jumped through the Pt21 hoops will create a stink - and rightly so, it is expensive to obtain a type certificate and production approval (different discussion if this is really necessary).

This all makes these aircraft difficult/costly to administer and means each annual will often take at least a month, unless the maintenance organisation is on the ball and motivated. For many aircraft spares are difficult to source, substitution of parts is not as easy as with LAA Permits. I would be very reluctant to buy into one !!

I don't know about the operational restrictions.
#1911680
peter-9363 wrote:The regulator could give in and allow a more lenient system but then the companies that have jumped through the Pt21 hoops will create a stink - and rightly so, it is expensive to obtain a type certificate and production approval (different discussion if this is really necessary).


That situation should be significantly improved by Part 21 Light (in EASA land)

Ian
#1911765
It's not particularly complicated. The only thing you need to remember is to apply for the permit at least two months in advance and since the annual is generally otherwise simple, you can get the aircraft back no slower normal. I checked about putting mine back on the German register and their process is the same.

The annoyance is the word "Permanent" on my EASA Form 18b approval. They even went to the trouble of issuing a special post-Brexit edict to explain why it didn't apply any more to the UK registered aircraft! If I had the money that would be one for the ECJ.
#1911810
peter-9363 wrote:This all makes these aircraft difficult/costly to administer and means each annual will often take at least a month, unless the maintenance organisation is on the ball and motivated. For many aircraft spares are difficult to source, substitution of parts is not as easy as with LAA Permits.


You must have had a bad experience Peter. Ours has never taken a month, one week is more typical for annual + permit revalidation. As Pete L said, the surveyor needs booking several weeks ahead for this. Our engine is Rotax so spares for that are easy to get. Other spares presumably depend on the particular manufacturer but again we've not had a problem so far.