Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By NDB_hold
#1912263
johnm wrote:Our POH says the autopilot needs to be off before 200 ft on approach and for take off. In practice we normally switch off a couple of hundred feet above decision height to ensure stable handflying before decision. In this case I was in the clear and treating LNAV+V as LPV for practice.

Not sure if that’s the G1000 version but our steam-gauge DA40 has the same 200ft limitation on autopilot use on approach but not below 800ft in ‘cruise, climb, descent and manoeuvring’.
By Cessna571
#1912265
IainD wrote:just sad that it appeared so avoidable.


I’ve read so many accounts of “then suddenly the weather had closed in on us from all sides” or some such.

This one I don’t understand.

“It was a beautiful clear day behind us, so we pressed on into cloud”

This isn’t a “we had to go into the cloud, it was our only option in an emergency” as cited above.

It was a conscious decision to put themselves in danger, rather than the usual mistake to put themselves in danger.

It’s one of the few “ain’t gonna happen to me” ones I can honestly say.

I’m never going to make a conscious decision to fly into a cloud with blue sky behind me unless I’m suitably qualified at the time.
#1912282
I absolutely agree with the above.

I suspect it’s a reasonable presumption that the Human Factors side of ‘fly outs’ and being sat in the aircraft with an old flying buddy played a significant part in the unfortunate decision making process.

Which is why I mentioned Risky Shift previously. Something for us all to watch out for in our own behaviours.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912285
Cessna571 wrote:It was a conscious decision to put themselves in danger, rather than the usual mistake to put themselves in danger.


That is a bold statement. I would suggest pilots don't knowingly put themselves in danger, they underestimate the risk of their chosen action and unintentionally put themselves in danger.
A le Ron liked this
By Ibra
#1912294
Cessna571 wrote:It was a conscious decision to put themselves in danger, rather than the usual mistake to put themselves in danger.


I agree there were plenty of other good (non risky) options, going into clouds that day was not “necessary at all” (other than saving 200£ of fuel on direct routing), there were plenty of options left, right, down and back

However, no one knows they are about to die die to their actions in the next 3min while flying, the amount of PLB triggered or 7700 fired before crash is very small (even aircraft with parachutes crash), people who survived crashes after LOC-I were not even aware of what happened in the last 10 seconds…

Taking conscious risks is easy to manage, it’s the unknown part (random or predicted) that bites!
Last edited by Ibra on Sun May 22, 2022 9:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
By A4 Pacific
#1912301
Taking conscious risks is easy to manage, it’s the unknown part (random or predictable) that bites!


A casual disregard for the rules is precisely the moment when people embark on their journey to catastrophe. Maybe not the first time. Or the second, or hundredth. But you’re on your way.

There are other routes to the scene of the accident, but that one in particular is an extremely well trodden path to the afterlife.

There’s nothing ‘unknown’ about that!

I thought Cessna571 summed it up rather well when he said:

It was a beautiful clear day behind us, so we pressed on into cloud
By Ibra
#1912302
Yes breaking legal rules is one warning sign (that could be latent or go unperceived: normalisation of deviance) but there are other warning signs that follow (“this time it’s different”) but will go unnoticed due to human factor limitations…
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By Rob L
#1912305
Get there-itis? If so, I've had that too but got away with it, thankfully

PeteSpencer wrote:
I've had that saying on my wall for 25years attached to a sepia photograph depicting a WW1 fighter lodged halfway up a tree with a coupla old boys on the ground below,below staring wistfully up at it.....

It sits beside the Southern half-mil which adorns the wall in front of my desk.


My recently-departed Dad came to Oshkosh with me in 1993 (my 30th birthday; just a few years after gaining my PPL). For that birthday he bought me this, an enamel/steel plate plaque; it has been hanging in my living room since then:

Upload my 172kb small photo

Wait

Wait

Wait

You're right, Pete, it's not working.
By Cessna571
#1912315
patowalker wrote:
Cessna571 wrote:It was a conscious decision to put themselves in danger, rather than the usual mistake to put themselves in danger.


That is a bold statement. I would suggest pilots don't knowingly put themselves in danger, they underestimate the risk of their chosen action and unintentionally put themselves in danger.


Maybe a bad choice of words.

What I mean is that usually people are in danger because they make a mistake in some way.

“Did you mean to select full flap before take off?”

“Crumbs… no”

It’s not usually as a result of something you meant to do.
T6Harvard liked this
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