Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912113
Flying in cloud is one thing flying in turbulent cloud is quite another and a decent scan is vital to avoid loss of control. It's VERY easy to lose control in turbulent cloud and it's quite easy to lose control when the unexpected happens. I was flying an approach on autopilot yesterday in reasonably clear weather for practice and a sudden gust caused the autopilot to disconnect on a 2 mile final the aircraft immediately sought to go awol and I quickly grabbed it and put it back in the right place, but it's essential to remain alert and prepared.
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By Hooligan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912172
Ibra wrote:
If you look at the data, there has been 4 CFIT in last 70 years,



Are you sure about that? Off the top of my head I can think of quite a few instances, Viscount into a Scottish Hillside, Graham Hill and his Aztec and I believe a similar accident involving a Baron on the same evening, a Junior and an Apache both hit hillsides north of Dunsfold, a 310 near Biggin, a 182 at Shoreham, a Mooney into the Wrekin, pretty sure all of those were CFIT in poor weather. Two others were a Cub and something else into the South Downs near Petersfield, though not sure whether "controlled flight" entered the equation. All these in the last 50 years... a P-68 at Dundee and a 310 there as well I think.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912173
Tomahawk into power lines near Cardiff. PA28 (?) into Butser Hill.

G-TOMS into Pen-y-Fan. KNT-wassisname and student at night somewhere in the north of England. The last two thankfully not fatal.

There are usually at least one or two a year.
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By Rob P
#1912177
I was thinking of the PA28 at Sandown, but it was so overloaded it probably should be classified as a UFIT :shock:

Rob P
By Ibra
#1912189
Hooligan wrote:
Ibra wrote:
If you look at the data, there has been 4 CFIT in last 70 years,



Are you sure about that? Off the top of my head I can think of quite a few instances, Viscount into a Scottish Hillside, Graham Hill and his Aztec and I believe a similar accident involving a Baron on the same evening, a Junior and an Apache both hit hillsides north of Dunsfold, a 310 near Biggin, a 182 at Shoreham, a Mooney into the Wrekin, pretty sure all of those were CFIT in poor weather. Two others were a Cub and something else into the South Downs near Petersfield, though not sure whether "controlled flight" entered the equation. All these in the last 50 years... a P-68 at Dundee and a 310 there as well I think.


Thanks for the list, the ones I have in mind were while aircraft was still away from airport in cruise before descent & approach, on approaches, yes you will find few more near airports like Graham Hill (DIY approach), Dunkeswell (the guy who installed own lights)…the numbers are not very alarming tough (unlike USA where CFIT was business as usually, especially pre-GPS days for piston aircraft hitting mountains between Colorado and California, sometimes on vectors off-airway and sometimes dealing with ice, oxygen or performance), I think there are more 1000 more crashes due to overweight from tight strips or from carburator icing than CFIT in UK while IFR, even puzzled there is not that much with VFR scud running? maybe as many pilots have IMCR rating?

There is NFW one can CFIT in UK nationwide in cruise above 5kft amsl (or 3kft away from two peaks), every piston aircraft I have flown will fly these altitudes…
#1912191
I think there are more 1000 more crashes due to overweight from tight strips or from carburator icing than CFIT in UK while IFR


A point of order. Nobody can CFIT whilst flying in accordance with IFR. It’s one or the other.

I think you are carefully selecting your so called ‘facts’ (which appear to be pretty ‘off the cuff’ guestimations) in order to fit your preferred narrative.

The whole point of instrument skills, isn’t to allow a pilot to enter IMC. It’s to allow a pilot to safely exit IMC. Flying VFR in marginal weather assuming that, if it all goes t1ts, you can just enter IMC as an unplanned emergency afterthought, (and it IS an emergency!) could very easily be getting yourself into a whole world of hurt! Very different to calmly, carefully and methodically planning and then conducting an IFR flight from the outset, fully in accordance with the regulations, and the suitability of the weather.

Instrument flying safely is about far, far more than just chasing needles!
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By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912194
caused the autopilot to disconnect on a 2 mile final


I seem to remember that the autopilot was supposed to be disconnected above five hundred feet AGL in the Diamond with the G1000 and the KAP140.
By Ibra
#1912200
A4 Pacific wrote:A point of order. Nobody can CFIT whilst flying in accordance with IFR. It’s one or the other.


CFIT can happen under IFR as well due to operational mistakes, there are plenty of cases in database as well, from being vectored into a mountain to early descend bellow MOC by mistake….one has to be “terrain aware” all the time there are plenty of radar maps, moving maps, topo maps, warnings, 3D GPS guidance, Synthetic-Vision...you can even get the full blow TAWS in headset for under 500£, all have reliable data to know where the nearest obstacle sits

All I am saying CFIT rarely happens for someone holding an IMCR operating in UK as long as he climbs above his safe altitudes in cruise, these are in 2kft-6kft range and are achievable in any IFR certified machine, even 95hp VFR Cub with gyro can do it (of course you only descend in VMC or on 3D ILS/RNP, as long as the pilot stays away from s**t shows of 2D NDB & VOR on stopwatch or freestyle VFR scud runs they will do just fine as far as terrain is concerned)

Flying in clouds (even with ice & convection) is way safer & softer than flying into the ground, for the latter, I have not heard of any rating that allow such flying yet? for the former, the IMCR gives the skills to deal with it even in “light IFR mount”, again 160hp C172 does just fine in UK clouds all year along, no need for FL250 on PT6 with boots: as long as you stay away from terrain & airspace, manage carburettor and have enough fuel endurance !

CFIT is rarely the biggest worry fir me in UK, I get more worried about nipping some airspace…but I take it seriously when flying under IFR to Annecy, Cannes, Sion, Annemasse

The original statement was that people with IMCR rating and without an IR (in NA SEP without PT6+FIKI) flying in clouds will end up smashing on hills everyday, I doubt that is accurate in UK? but I am inclined to think it’s likely to be very accurate description of what would eventually happen in Switzerland, Norway, USA…
Last edited by Ibra on Sat May 21, 2022 2:33 pm, edited 19 times in total.
#1912204
G-AFZP wrote:This all reminds me of the caption to a poster I saw on a wall at Kidlington about 50 years ago:

"Instrument flying is an unnatural act probably punishable by God".



Here's another:

"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect".

It is as well to remind ourselves from time to time.
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By IainD
#1912251
GAFlyer4Fun wrote:
IainD wrote:One of the sad things of this report from the pictures is it looks like if they diverted North for a few miles then easterly they could have avoided the cloud. Not sure why you would choose to continue straight through if you see shower squalls down to sea level ?

Iain


Perhaps they didnt see the cloud as a threat so tried to follow the magenta line straight through it, or perhaps due to lack of recency of the faster aircraft type and its panel mount IFR GPS they got to it quicker than expected whilst overloaded trying to program a route change?
or ....


I wonder if it was poor weather briefing before the fly out and knowing what to expect with an occluded front in the channel. Anyhow just guessing ..just sad that it appeared so avoidable.
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#1912252
MichaelP wrote:
caused the autopilot to disconnect on a 2 mile final


I seem to remember that the autopilot was supposed to be disconnected above five hundred feet AGL in the Diamond with the G1000 and the KAP140.

2 miles is 600 feet AGL.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912255
Our POH says the autopilot needs to be off before 200 ft on approach and for take off. In practice we normally switch off a couple of hundred feet above decision height to ensure stable handflying before decision. In this case I was in the clear and treating LNAV+V as LPV for practice.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1912257
Loco parentis wrote:
G-AFZP wrote:Here's another:

"Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous, but to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect".

It is as well to remind ourselves from time to time.


I've had that saying on my wall for 25years attached to a sepia photograph depicting a WW1 fighter lodged halfway up a tree with a coupla old boys on the ground below,below staring wistfully up at it.....

It sits beside the Southern half-mil which adorns the wall in front of my desk.

(would attach image if BBCodes worked) :roll:
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