Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Ibra
#1911650
AlanM wrote:I wonder if they had any comms with the other aircraft on the fly-out. There are so many biases in play here; feeling secure as in a group; possibly the previous flying in cloud and so on. I am sure they were able pilots who made a few decisions that made an apparantly OKish day tuen so badly.


I agree, lot of “group gradient” that happens when flying with other aircraft or even pilots in the same cockpit…it’s not even clear how much of flight & weather planning and decision making was done by PIC?

Same thing could happen during the flying part, the 1st guy went into clouds at 5kft and was talking to FIS just fine (or he did not call mayday), the 2nd guy went after him and managed just fine, the 3rd guy goes it and he hit the dark patch of TCU

Here is another example, this was two experienced SR22 pilots who went into hill as they were flying in route & weather planned by someone else, they probably had no clue about en-route weather, again two microlights managed that route by sneaking under clouds into a into valley in marginal weather while keeping ground in sight: this was possible in ULM cruising at 60kts but that “flying style” is not ideal for the Cirrus flying in front at +180kts in IMC bellow MSA, they should be at FL110 above Airway MEA, actually 20nm before reaching that hardcore terrain part !

https://actu.fr/occitanie/toulouse_3155 ... 65098.html
#1911697
PeteSpencer wrote:Many years ago one summer my son and I were all lined up to fly the arrer to Franks Forum bash at Nijmegen, IFR by the long N Sea crossing at c. FL100

The freezing level over the N sea was forecast 1500 ft.

We just made it to Stansted to catch the RYR to Neiderrhein.................. :wink:


I was looking forward to that trip with Irv. The forecasts for Belgium (and maybe a bit of Netherlands and NE France) were something like lots and lots of heavy rain with low cloud bases, and I dont remember if CB/TS got a mention but they probably did.

It was clearly a non-starter for us, and NW France was cavok so we planned and flew there instead. 8)
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By IainD
#1911720
One of the sad things of this report from the pictures is it looks like if they diverted North for a few miles then easterly they could have avoided the cloud. Not sure why you would choose to continue straight through if you see shower squalls down to sea level ?

Iain
By TomWW
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911809
Iceman wrote:...... When I did my CAA PPL, you had to do four hours of the 40 hour PPL course under the hood. ......

Iceman


I had completely forgotten that! I had to check my log book to see I did that as well! Must be getting old. :oops:

But I agree with the idea of doing a bit of practice under the hood in the hour with an instructor. I would include a bit of recovery from unusual attitudes.

There was an accident in Somerset recently. A pretty experienced pilot just had no idea what to do when in IMC. That's according to someone who talked to him on the radio, and someone else who listened on the radio, very shortly before he died.

I do like the idea of carefully pushing the limits. So when you accidently find you have messed up 1) its not totally strange to be a bit surprised/shocked and 2) you have been close to where you are and you can quickly get back to your comfort zone.

I well remember the first time I deliberately flew into a layer of cloud with a passenger next to me. It was a bit scary even though I was IMC qualified at the time.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911814
TomWW wrote:I well remember the first time I deliberately flew into a layer of cloud with a passenger next to me. It was a bit scary even though I was IMC qualified at the time.


Flying into IMC deliberately with only an IMCr/IR(R) is scary.

Chocolate teapot rating.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911818
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Flying into IMC deliberately with only an IMCr/IR(R) is scary.

Chocolate teapot rating.


Eeerrr no. It's all about currency and practice, I flew in poor weather quite often with my IMCR and only got an IR so I could fly IFR in Class A and outside the UK.
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By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911822
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
TomWW wrote:I well remember the first time I deliberately flew into a layer of cloud with a passenger next to me. It was a bit scary even though I was IMC qualified at the time.


Flying into IMC deliberately with only an IMCr/IR(R) is scary.

Chocolate teapot rating.


Disagree entirely.
It all depends on whether you stay current in flying on instruments, and on your aircraft’s equipment. I regularly undertake flights during which I expect to spend an hour or more in solid IMC and to fly an instrument approach down to IFR minimums.

My ancient Century 3 autopilot was repaired last year and will now maintain a heading for me. However it was totally u/s for more than 10 -12 years, during which I had to hand fly in IMC for hours at a time.

Like all skills, you need to keep in regular practice. I take every opportunity to fly in IMC, or under the hood with an IR or IRI in the other seat, both for safety, and to critique my flying.

I would suggest that IR(R) rated pilots should do the same.

As a CRI, I do many Biennial instructor flights and I always suggest that the pilot might like to take the opportunity to do at least a little bit of simulated Instrument Flying with me acting as Safety Pilot. Some are quite good and go away with renewed confidence, some are spurred on to do some refresher IMC trying with an IRI.

Interestingly, one of the main skills that fade, is how to get the aircraft fully and correctly trimmed, which is obviously a major factor in Instrument flying
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By G-BLEW
Boss Man  Boss Man
#1911829
Lefty wrote:Interestingly, one of the main skills that fade, is how to get the aircraft fully and correctly trimmed, which is obviously a major factor in Instrument flying


That should be a skill used on every flight regardless of conditions. Flying an out of trim aircraft is a pointless* pain.

Ian
*OK, there may be rare occasions when it is useful to have very slight nose up trim, but they are very much the exception.
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By defcribed
#1911853
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Flying into IMC deliberately with only an IMCr/IR(R) is scary.

Chocolate teapot rating.


That statement is so provocative and so demonstrably wrong that I can't decide whether it's a wind up.

Someone who can pass the IR(R) skills test is perfectly able to fly an aeroplane solely by reference to instruments, especially if a decent chunk of the training is in actual cloud - which any good instructor does. It would be good if this were a mandatory part of the course but one cannot control the weather. What an IR(R) holder probably can't do is hand-fly NDB holds to some totally unnecessary degree of accuracy in a non-radar environment on partial panel. I doubt if many IR holders could do it either, if spot checked at random. Currency is everything.

The IR(R) was the best piece of training I've ever done, and like @Lefty I will happily plan to fly into (non-convective, non-freezing) cloud without a problem. It isn't scary for me or my passengers.
By Ibra
#1911874
I am sure an IMCR would have been helpful on this case, even extra hours each year without rating on how to fly safely in clouds would have been useful, there are lot of mis-conceptions on skills by IMCR holders, I hold an IR & IMCR and I honestly can't see the difference for usage while in cruise inside Golf airspace?

When I used to fly on IMCR, there was no single doubt on me fly into clouds or slide along an ILS, maybe one of the reasons is that FIIR/IRI who did my IMCR training in his owned Archer had zero issues with training in OVC006 days?

PS: there was a group of pilots with IMCR, FAA/EASA IR who used to regularly state this c%&£p of "IMCR is out of jail card", the funny part is I used to fly in/out of Stapleford on freshly issued IMCR in weather days where none of them was flying, instrument currency is the only king in town and any rating is simply what you make out of it :lol:
Loco parentis, Rjk983, AndyR liked this
By TomWW
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911901
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:
TomWW wrote:I well remember the first time I deliberately flew into a layer of cloud with a passenger next to me. It was a bit scary even though I was IMC qualified at the time.


Flying into IMC deliberately with only an IMCr/IR(R) is scary.

Chocolate teapot rating.


Sorry to be blunt. But I disagree. To me the IMC is a great rating. I'm not convinced the IR teaches you much more about flying. Yes the TK is much more in depth, but (and I may get shot down here) as I remember it, the flying limits you are tested to are not significantly different.
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