Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By kanga
#1911590
It was only one hour on my BoT PPL course :? Full screens in a C150.

After it the FI told me that its purpose was so to terrify me that I'd make sure I never went into a cloud deliberately nor close enough to one to enter one by mistake; it was not to teach me. If I wanted to be better at it I should do the then newish IMC

It was a long time ago. I did ask the FI during my biennial a few years ago to spend it on instruments, ending with a NDB cloudbreak. That was actually instructional. I was prompted by having being suckered into low cloud over hills once when I was 'nearly home'
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By Hooligan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911616
Maybe 30 years ago, I was helping a friend build a shed down in Hampshire, lovely summer's day with big CuNims building. A Cherokee Arrow flew over heading SW at maybe 3 or 4000' and disappeared into the side of one of these clouds. Could still hear it; the sound of a diving/accelerating engine followed shortly thereafter and a couple of minutes later the Arrow flew back past us somewhat lower. No idea what happened, did they change their mind, was it an instructor demonstrating what can happen if you push on into rubbish weather, or did we witness a very lucky escape? I've occasionally wondered...
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By pplmeir
#1911617
Highland Park wrote:Report issued by AAIB:

https://www.gov.uk/aaib-reports/aaib-sp ... 0-2-g-egva


This special is quite detailed.

Re wx: referring to Image

The met 215 really does not paint a picture of severity of what the report refers to as the convergence line and I think most of us VFR would plan and expect to be able to fly around any wx (at planning stage) just using the 215 information.

The 215 does not forecast a convergence line

It was just sitting there waiting for them with severe clear for the rest of the route

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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911624
One hesitates to speculate on this particular incident, but there is a very clear warning here to pilots who are not instrument qualified deluding themselves into thinking that keeping the aircraft upright with an instrument scan is all there is to it. This delusion can be reinforced by previously having got away with it with minor (illegal) excursions into cloud in benign conditions - ‘normalization of deviance’ as noted above.

I wonder if the forecast 0 degC level of 1500-2000’ even played a part in the thinking when the pilot decided that entering cloud was his best option.

So sad and unnecessary.
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By A4 Pacific
#1911630
The met 215 really does not paint a picture of severity of what the report refers to as the convergence line and I think most of us VFR would plan and expect to be able to fly around any wx (at planning stage) just using the 215 information.

The 215 does not forecast a convergence line

It was just sitting there waiting for them with severe clear for the rest of the route


I’m not at all sure what point you are making?

That forecast though manageable, should ring alarm bells. But it’s never more than a ‘best guess’. (Try planning an arrival 14 hours after you make your fuel decision!) Use it for planning options, but particularly when VFR, fly based on what you can actually see ahead of you. Oh, and know your limits, be that legislation or/and proficiency.

Well done to everyone else who were able to both see and “to fly around any wx” that was “just sitting there waiting for” the unwary.

All a terrible shame.
By Ibra
#1911634
pplmeir wrote:Re wx: referring to Image
The met 215 really does not paint a picture of severity of what the report refers to as the convergence line


I don’t look at Form 215 when flying, I gotta deal with what I see and adjust expectation :thumleft:

Looking at that picture there are plenty of VFR options that does not involve getting wet (maybe less if you add airspace with Class Alpha LTMA and Notamed Danger Area being “close to prohibited”)

The easy solution involve staying level and deviating with 60deg turn upwind, Avgas is by far way more cheaper and useful than FIKI, WX radar or stormscopes when it comes to convective patches

That cloud looks nasty as it started growing horns and the cloud top sits lot of degrees above horizon (not FL300 or traupopause but still more than 9kft which is the tactical ceiling for “200hp NA SEP” like my aircraft), freezing level sits 3kft above water with plenty of cloud base and there is no hardcore terrain under: any current IMCR/IR rated pilot in IFR equipped aircraft could fly through that one “just fine” but it has to be hand flown (auto-pilot will disconnect) and his passengers will never fly with him ever again….

Given the low hours on type, I wonder if the pilot has ever flew an Arrow above 10kft in CAVOK? like he know the correct climb technique (prop & mixture) or had some technique that could works in VMC first? rather than trying to improvise high performance climb and stall inside bumpy TCU for the first time? of if he had the climb performance but could not fly above FL75 and lost it on the descent?
By Ibra
#1911639
It’s much more complicated than that the goal was to fly to destination, if the goal is to go back to departure point then 180 turn becomes a trivial task (except in tight canyons), they did not make their decision to cancel their trip at all…

Executing (180 turn) is easy making the decision is the hardest part…I am not sure what was their “stop” to cut the loss, there has to be something?

Like if not on the other side with blue upside in next 5min turn back?
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911642
Ibra wrote:if not on the other side with blue upside in next 5min turn back?

5 minutes, even more so 10 assuming you manage the 180, is a very long time in lumpy IMC if you don't know what you're doing.
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By Rob P
#1911643
malcolmfrost wrote:......and the 180 done in the airfield car park!


I did a car 360 (unintentionally) leaving Old Warden after an airshow. The boy on the gate told me off for 'doing donuts'. He should try driving a 911 on very wet grass. :lol:

I dropped a GSXR on the wet grass leaving Duxford too once. :(

Rob P
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911644
Many years ago one summer my son and I were all lined up to fly the arrer to Franks Forum bash at Nijmegen, IFR by the long N Sea crossing at c. FL100

The freezing level over the N sea was forecast 1500 ft.

We just made it to Stansted to catch the RYR to Neiderrhein.................. :wink:
By AlanM
#1911645
I wonder if they had any comms with the other aircraft on the fly-out. There are so many biases in play here; feeling secure as in a group; possibly the previous flying in cloud and so on. I am sure they were able pilots who made a few decisions that made an apparantly OKish day turn so bad.

FWIW I was working aircraft below FL70 that day up near ORTAC and there had been one divert back to the UK before contacting us and another leaving the CI route west of BIA instead of DCT SAM.
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By timjenner
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1911647
A sobering report to read for sure.

If I read the diagrams correctly, the rapid descent coincided exactly with the last radio call - was trying to speak on the radio one distraction too far?

I also can't help but wonder about the state of mind of crew of the twin from the same group that ended up in a field on the way home - presumably by that time they were aware that something nasty had happened to one of their fellow aircraft. :cry:
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