Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1899755
My crosswind landings have never been particulary tidy, mainly due to flying from places with multiple runways, though if I'm honest I do tend to choose days to fly that would not test me in this regards.
My usual technique is crab then a very late transition to straightening up with rudder, followed by a usually less than optimal touch down. I'm aware of the different techniques and that wing_down and crab are taught separately but can be combined, with the transition to wing-down being at whatever height the pilot chooses, so I am aware of the advantages and disadvantages of both methods.

I've recently been bashing the circuit to get better at these as, being aware of the theory, I just need some practice. I have started to transition to the wing-down approach at about 300ft (rather than just kick it straight prior to touchdown) to get a feel for the different amount of wing down needed to hold the centreline but, due to being unfamiliar with the sight and sensations I am always concerned of how far the aircraft can be wing- low upon touchdown. Common sense would suggest that within the demonstrated 17kts max crosswind all should be fine but I always find myself mentally unable to keep the wing low in the vicinity of the ground, sometimes resulting in a bit of sideload. I've had an instructor many years ago show me a crosswind landing in a very strong crosswind in a Cessna and I remember thinking that there is now way a low-wing aircraft would not have grounded a wing-tip. Would that just be my perception or a legitimate concern?

For the avoidance of doubt I have been up with instructors to try to improve but, as usual, the weather rarely complies. And I am DEFINITELY NOT going up tomorrow!
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By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1899764
I don't know the answer, but do remember that different variants of PA28 have different wings and distance between wheels, and that you won't be looking at the AH during landing, so the number is likely fairly meaningless anyway.

You could always get a piece of string & protractor ;)
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#1899787
riverrock wrote:
You could always get a piece of string & protractor ;)


Or freeze-frame the airport web cam at he first sign of debris coming off the wingtip. 8)

It's not really a bank angle number I'm after, more opinion as to whether the wind speed that would ground the wing is at, close to or far beyond the crosswinds postulated as "max demonstrated".
#1899792
Your max crosswind depends how much you crab and how much you wing down, the most important factors are runway width, approach speed, wind & gust factor

All what I am saying here are personal opinions (if you want to practice better find a good instructor who does 30G50 crosswind in PA28)

- If the runway is wide & small gusts, I go crab all the way to 5ft and straighten with rudder on flare but you may take some drift while doing so if not putting wind down enough but if the runway is wide, 2m away from center-line is acceptable

- If the runway is tight & large gusts, I transit wing down as soon as possible about 300ft, if I can’t track runway center-line with rudder & ailerons without crabbing it’s probably not a good idea to land

I use bank angle against low level gusts and crab angle against low level wind, as approximate limits: any certified aircraft* like PA28 can land and keep straight up to 0.2*VS crosswind without wing down correction....any descent pilot can handle crosswind limit 20deg nose crab angle & cross-gust limit is 5deg wing down bank angle, in practice, near the ground you can afford lot of limits as cross wind decays but cross gusts increase (in gliders you can sneak bellow the boundary layer), if you feel you need to put nose very down when hit by a cross gust just go-around and come back when it calm down, if conditions are calm, you rarely need to put lot wing down when the wheels are close to the ground due to wind gradient

Now all that theory above becomes entangled and natural once you have enough currency landing in challenging conditions but you may need to revert to some thinking when you are lacking currency, it's important to learn slowly, I don't think you can put an easy figure, it's mostly practice

People will get scared when you bank 15 deg near the ground at 50ft when rudder is not enough but as long as you bring it back to 5deg on touchdown it's fine :lol:

PS*: applies to new tricyles that are flown by normal pilots, old vintage tailwheels may use breaks & rudder and skilled test pilots to reproduce POH/AFM number
Last edited by Ibra on Thu Feb 17, 2022 2:29 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1899801
I would expect you to be able to use the wing down method at touch down at max-demonstrated without issue - that wouldn't concern me at all.
I've flown other aircraft in which you would run out of rudder authority a long time before you had a wing strike - the wing strike risk is more to do with a gust. I would expect the same with a PA28.
The reason I don't fly a wing down approach in my Jodel, is that cross winds are higher at altitude, and it doesn't have enough rudder authority to maintain an approach when cross winds are much above the demonstrated max. I do convert the crab into wing down before touch down though.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1899832
I have got used to avoiding the wing down method so I can keep a close eye on a 200 yard stand of 20ft trees alongside our rwy26 threshold/touchdown point as they flash past at 69mph : My wingtip is about 5 metres from them at the best of times , never mind the windshear...................... :roll:
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#1899853
riverrock wrote:...max-demonstrated ...


Max demonstrated crosswind limit is just that (I use riverrock above as exemplar quote; no slur intended).

The FAA (and perhaps the US CAA before them) have this idea of a "demonstrated maximum crosswind limit" at the time of and on the day of certification.

We all know that most aircraft will perform well outside of those "demonstrated" limits, but since these certified figures then get entered in to various Pilot Operating Handbooks (and similar), these are the ones that flying schools & insurance companies use.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1899856
I always crab until 'the last possible moment' and then transition to wing down a smidge and land.

With crabbing you can in essence taken any crosswind, the transition needs to be high enough to get the wheels lined up (I fly about 50% of the time tailwheel aeroplanes and they don't like to land with the wheels pointing not in the direction of travel) but so low that the wind does not overcome the inertia and starts moving you sideways in strong winds.

It's a matter of practise, practise.

I don't like the wing down method all the way down finals as a) you are constantly slipping and the ball and passengers don't like it b) you are constraint by rudder capacity to the amount of X-wind you can cope with.
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By Tall_Guy_In_a_PA28
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1899858
lobstaboy wrote:I think you'll run out of rudder before you ground the wingtip?

I would agree with this, based on an 'extreme' demonstration I was given in a PA23 to convince me to switch from crab to wing-down method. It worked and I am a convert to wing-down in the PA28. No scrapes so far.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1899860
Rob L wrote:The FAA (and perhaps the US CAA before them) have this idea of a "demonstrated maximum crosswind limit" at the time of and on the day of certification.

We all know that most aircraft will perform well outside of those "demonstrated" limits, but since these certified figures then get entered in to various Pilot Operating Handbooks (and similar), these are the ones that flying schools & insurance companies use.


They are certification rules. IIRC it is 0.3 Vs, is the minimum an aeroplane needs to be able to be handled at for it to be certified. That also explains why some STOL aeroplanes, such as the Maule, have a ridonculous low Max Demonstrated X-wind it is something like 13 mph <- miles!

Clearly the mighty Maule can and does cope with a lot more than that even when a rank amateur like me flies it but it is what the regs require and of course nobody is going to get into any bother with those low values.

Insurance is often quoted, but I am not aware of any accidents where they wiggled out of paying by quoting not sticking to max Demonstrated Crosswind.

Yes schools like to use it - for the reasons given above.

Have fun during the training and look forward to smiling like the cheshire cat when you have honed it to perfection! :thumright: :thumleft:
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