Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1900023
Rob L wrote:I don't wish to fight the nose/tailwheel battle by any means....

Four of my favourite aircraft have nosewheels; North American B-25, Douglas DC-6, Lockheed Constellation and Cessna 150.


Hmmmm, well, how many favourite aircraft with tailwheels do you have? We need to know that to understand the significance of the above bits I've quoted.
Danny liked this
#1900024
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
A4 Pacific wrote:As for being “taught to fly the aeroplane they’re in” is concerned, the big jets are still just aeroplanes. They all obey Newton’s universal laws of power and attitude.


But some have more dangly bits under the wings than others.


When I joined my first airline on the 737-200 with a clockwork cockpit, I had (about?) 4,000 hours. But I’d never carried a fare paying passenger, never done a PA and half my hours were in aircraft that didn’t even have wheels!

It all came as a bit of a shock to be honest! :lol: :lol:
Last edited by A4 Pacific on Fri Feb 18, 2022 5:17 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Rob L, Danny liked this
#1900025
lobstaboy wrote:
Rob L wrote:I don't wish to fight the nose/tailwheel battle by any means....

Four of my favourite aircraft have nosewheels; North American B-25, Douglas DC-6, Lockheed Constellation and Cessna 150.


Hmmmm, well, how many favourite aircraft with tailwheels do you have? We need to know that to understand the significance of the above bits I've quoted.


Only one: Taylorcraft :pirat:
Danny liked this
#1900026
Rob L wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:
Rob L wrote:I don't wish to fight the nose/tailwheel battle by any means....

Four of my favourite aircraft have nosewheels; North American B-25, Douglas DC-6, Lockheed Constellation and Cessna 150.


Hmmmm, well, how many favourite aircraft with tailwheels do you have? We need to know that to understand the significance of the above bits I've quoted.


Only one: Taylorcraft :pirat:

OK: two: Boeing B17
Danny liked this
#1900034
Rob L wrote:
Rob L wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:
Hmmmm, well, how many favourite aircraft with tailwheels do you have? We need to know that to understand the significance of the above bits I've quoted.


Only one: Taylorcraft :pirat:

OK: two: Boeing B17


OK fair enough then! And an interesting, eclectic mix ;)

Strangely I prefer the look of the Liberator (nosewheel) to the B17, despite generally prefering the looks of tailwheel aircraft. I wonder what their crosswind limits were?

(Edit Googling suggests 12mph for a B17, but I can't find anything for the Liberator)
Danny liked this
#1900047
BoeingBoy wrote:Oh God! Crosswind Landings...... Don't get me started..!! :twisted: :twisted:

On my PA28 I've found that the book figure of 18kts is easily controlled by applying the correction as the threshold is approached and then maintained throughout a perfectly normal wings level landing. Yes, the wing goes down and the rudder increases to correct for gusts or sheer but in essence the bank is never limiting. However it's not unknown to reach the control stops to achieve a perfect touch down.


Just to be clear, can you elaborate on this, say going back to 500 feet up.
Danny liked this
By BoeingBoy
#1900120
In the jets we were encouraged to start applying rudder to straighten the nose at about 200'. But remember we were doing around 120kts on average. In the Archer, after crabbing to track on the approach, as the threshold is closing (so probably about 100-200') I straighten up with a slow and progressive rudder input until the nose is centred on the runway. At the same time applying into wind aileron to maintain the wings level (with wing down if needs be to keep tracking straight) and then just carry out a perfectly normal landing on the centreline whilst maintaining those crossed control inputs throughout. Any excess wind is catered for by dropping the into wind wing and touching on that side first. However the nose never varies from the centreline.

It's personal choice but I only use two stages of flap for most of my Archer landings so I find that having better ability to keep the nose up, along with better roll control makes things easier. Some might want three stages but I tend find that results in a flat landing most of the time. It's what works best for you.

A quick Google search provided this video. Lots to discuss in it but the end result is what we're talking about.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-Wch7rmtkc
Danny, SGS66 liked this
#1900148
Sometimes landing the aircraft can seem like something of a black art. Ninety nine really good landings and nobody says a dickie bird! One bad one and suddenly everybody wants you to listen to their view of your skills. Including the old American granny down the back who as she leaves the aircraft on her zimmer, always asks “sonny, did we land or were we shot down?” :evil:
Danny, Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1900172
Thank you all for your contributions. I know its an issue that keeps coming up on the forums but it's always nice to get new perspectives, or new ways of explaining things. The points made about how the big stuff do (or don't do...) their crosswind landings is very interesting and couldn't be better timed as every time I looked at the telly yesterday I kept seeing various big jets doing crosswind landings and not one scrape! So...I guess I've just got to get back on the horse and do whatever corrections are necessary to achieve the desired result. Sounds obvious I know but I can liken it to my past inability to do tight u-turns on my (rather large) motorcycle. The penny dropped when I was told that the bike WILL fo where you look. Once that nugget fell into place I rather enjoyed doing them when my riding buddies were paddling their bikes around.

It seems to be a matter of gradually challenging my reticence to apply wing down when required.

Thanks again..
StratoTramp liked this
#1911349
Tried out the technique of BoeingBoy (above) yesterday when the rwy available was 20 and the METAR was 240/15G25. I recall I was cleared to land short final with wind 250/19. It was interesting and I had a bootful of left rudder and a lot of right aileron - after the landing in a PA28-181 :D i realized i did not give a much attention to the point at which rudder is neutralized to cater for the fact that rudder is controlling nosewheel. Would BeoingBoy like to comment please?
#1911351
The wind and weathercocking tendency doesn’t disappear because you are on the ground - you will likely need most if not all of the bootful of rudder applied to maintain directional control on the rollout. Look out of the window and keep the aircraft straight and you won’t go wrong. Or “fly the output” without thinking too much about your inputs.
Flyin'Dutch', A le Ron liked this
#1911359
lobstaboy wrote:Strangely I prefer the look of the Liberator (nosewheel) to the B17, despite generally prefering the looks of tailwheel aircraft. I wonder what their crosswind limits were?


Not hugely relevant in the ETO as most were flown from six-runway airfields.

Rob P
#1911367
Sorry to come late to this thread but ....

I always fly my Warrior crab angle and don't have any issues with drift, but admire those wing-down people and resolve to practice it more. However - one day I was at the end of a long flight and approaching a public airport in Sweden when the crosswind was given as 30kt, directly across the runway. The approach and landing were without incident, better than I'd anticipated, but I then found taxying to be very difficult, requiring full use of differntial brakes just to keep rolling in the right direction.

Finally reaching the taxiway and turning into wind, I relaxed a little and looked back down the approach. An ATR (High wing twin) had followed me down and I watched, admiring the pilot's skill, as he rounded out wing down. Then I saw a puff of dust from his wingtip. Of course it might not have actually touched the ground, but it certainly looked like it.

In the tower paying my landing fee, I enquired if they'd noticed anything. "Oh no" they said.
Flyin'Dutch' liked this
By BoeingBoy
#1911370
I do cringe when I read about there being two methods for crosswind landings. There is only one, and that is to arrive at the point of touchdown with downwind rudder and into wind aileron applied in sufficient amounts to counter any crosswind and land the aircraft aligned with the centre line and with zero drift. What does exist are two ways of arriving at that state. The first being the 'kick and miss' method that 99% of the time sees the pilot get it wrong and either have to correct for an early input by converting to wing down, or the late version that sees the aircraft contact too early whilst drifting. This method also tends to result in the pilot forgetting to simultaneously apply the opposing aileron, hence producing an upwind wing lift.

I'm glad to see you moving to the 'wing down' method. Although I would say 300' is perhaps a little early. There is nothing to stop you using offset heading to drift down the centreline for comfort until you're approaching the threshold, but at that point, maybe 100'+ you slowly and smoothly put enough crossed inputs in to keep the wings level and the nose down the centreline. The thing that fools most people teaching it to themselves is that full control deflection is sometimes called for to achieve the desired result. However, it works well and allows you to react to wind changes in good time and removes all guess work. It's worked for me on everything from Tiger Moths to 767's.

The 'wing down' comes in when correcting to regain the desired condition or for landing in winds over the published limit. I can land my Archer with wings level at 17kts. However gusts or variations might mean that full inputs are needed to achieve that. The amount of bank needed can seem significant visually but to be honest I don't think you'd ever hit the tip if landing within limits. I've instructed on PA28's since the early seventies and I've never heard of anyone hitting a wing on a correctly executed crosswind landing.

As for how much wind you can land in then it's up to you how you interpret the significance of the demonstrated limit, and what you feel happy standing before your insurance company and the AAIB/CAA in the event of a runway excursion. Sadly the subject of acceptable crosswinds tends to be dominated by male testosterone in the same way maximum speeds of cars and size of caught fish are discussed.

You would be well advised to find an instructor who is happy to teach wing down, and find a suitable day to get some practise in. When starting instruction on the subject I usually went to altitude and asked the student to skid in level flight until both full aileron and rudder were reached. This gave a feel for the aircraft and increased confidence before having to use them close to the ground.

Not the greatest video but this will get you started on the subject: