Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1895570
Iceman wrote:This seems to be what Farnborough do today. I rarely hear the ‘cleared to …’ words, just ‘climb level x, contact London, frequency y’. There seems to be an implied clearance if you’re climbing to a level that takes you into controlled airspace

With their luxurious CAS maybe they have just got out of the habit of confirming entry clearance to mere Class G mortals...
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#1895609
Pilot Pete wrote:Interesting subject.
I'm not 100%, but I'm fairly sure I haven't heard 'cleared to enter' when operating into LTC areas in the climb.
I've called the supervisor from the ground and exchanged details.
I have an active FP, I have been given a squawk. The controller has my strip infront of him and he issues a command to a point in space.
Each time it's been so busy I've felt lucky to get my call in. At that point I think we both know what I'm expected to do. I'm unlikely to reconfirm.
If it has been said, I will have definitely read-back but just dont recall.

If I was cold calling for a 'pop up' IFR I'd be looking to hear it and read back.
Essex have never failed to issue 'CTE' but it has always been less busy than LTC.


For avoidance of doubt I work in LTC (and Essex radar are located at Swanwick also!).

Someone, somewhere will have positively cleared your flight to enter CAS. If thats not explicit then I'd certainky like to know where and what frequency from an ATS point of view. If you depart IFR from an airfield within a CTR that is connected to the wider network then you are implicitly cleared into CAS because A). You're within it already and B). You've filed a flight plan within airways/CTA for a portion of your flight. E.g. A flight from Stansted to Edinburgh. At no time will that pilot hear "cleared to enter CAS".

A different example will be someone from, say, Lee-On-Solent going to Cumbernauld with a filed level of FL110. The flight is known to ATC and flight data will be distributed. EITHER, Southampton will have obtained an entry clearance from TC and pass it to the pilot OR they will pass the flight to TC where THEY will issue the join. Someone, somewhere has issued a clearance.

As an examiner, if I heard anyone fail to give a clearance to join CAS, when appropriate, then it would DEFINITELY be a meeting without coffee and biccies. That said, standards are high in TC so I would be VERY surprised if it was any of our sector controllers who failed to directly issue a clearance.

Also remember that a lot of co-ordination goes on behind the scenes that the pilot isnt necessarily aware of.... :thumright:


SD
Last edited by Spamcan Defender on Tue Jan 25, 2022 4:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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#1895610
Talkdownman wrote:
Iceman wrote:This seems to be what Farnborough do today. I rarely hear the ‘cleared to …’ words, just ‘climb level x, contact London, frequency y’. There seems to be an implied clearance if you’re climbing to a level that takes you into controlled airspace

With their luxurious CAS maybe they have just got out of the habit of confirming entry clearance to mere Class G mortals...


In that instance I'd suggest that Farnborough have received a clearance from TC and as their CTR is directly below the TMA there is no need to join as in example A in my post above. It will be a continuous climb in CAS as you're there already....

SD
#1895615
Without requoting everything, and as a response to Spamcan Defender I will then concede it very likely I have delt with the clearance and appropriate response, semi autonomously while concentrating hard to accurately absorb, respond ans comply with the details of my clearance. :thumright:

I don't do it often enough that a departure into low IMC and almost immediate penetration into the LTMA doesn't feel very high workload.
Especially when I'm trying to squeeze my 'G' reg call in among the fast traffic that doesn't have much time to waste, and the controllers even less so :thumright:
#1895633
Jonzarno wrote:
Iceman wrote:I thought that we were getting into the realm of sub-atomic physics, with perhaps some small quarks :lol:.

Iceman 8)


Perhaps.....

Or perhaps not.....

Or perhaps both.....

:D


Or
https://www.waitrose.com/ecom/products/ ... 410-586411
Cheese!
Apparently how it is pronounced is under debate. Does it rhyme with 'pork' or 'ark'. Even Joyce seems not to have been clear
https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-a ... the%20time.
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By Cub
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895642
Pilot Pete wrote:Essex have never failed to issue 'CTE' but it has always been less busy than LTC.


Essex Radar is located in Terminal Control.

None of the controllers at Swanwick and any other unit should be failing to issue a positive clearance to enter CAS, but we are all human and equally no controller should object to a pilot confirming that a clearance was intended if not issued.
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By JonathanB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895651
I suspect the issue lies when a clearance is passed to an external agency to join who then transfer the aircraft before the join has actually happened. Then the aircraft calls on frequency and the clearance is updated without giving the “cleared to join” words as it’s assumed they’ve already been issued by the external agency who were given the original clearance but may not have been.
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#1895669
If 1/ radio & radar contact have been established and 2/ you altitude & transponder have been verified by a secondary radar unit (they ask your altimeter altitude and confirm the squawk) and 3/ you have been giving an altitude before handover to LTC, then go for the climb nothing bad will come out of it: the lowest part of LTMA where you will join is managed by that secondary unit (e.g. Southampton, Luton, Thames, Farnborough) who give initial clearance typically into the lower 1000ft of controlled airspace, there are various arrangements on who does what and own what (you will have to look hard to find details on the arrangements or published letters of agreement but anyway it's not your business, it's ATC job: you are on radar and flying on active flight plan with valid transponder and initial clerance to climb or join, I won't care much about who gives it to me)

If it's some funky airspace join (outside standard WPT or VOR where uncontrolled traffic is dropped and picked up like CPT & DET) or you were talking to non-radar units: visuel or procedural ATC, FIS, AFIS, AG, gliding tower or yourself, then yes be very careful fella, strictly speaking they will ask you to ROCAS and you will need to hear the magical words from TC after switching the frequency :wink: if you are on 7000, remain outside controlled airspace forever !
Last edited by Ibra on Tue Jan 25, 2022 8:34 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By AndyR
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895677
I’d expect to hear “cleared to enter in the climb…” and an altitude or FL.

Most of my IFR departures over the years have been from smaller airfields who issue the initial clearance along the lines of ROCAS on track GWC (or similar) and I would want a positive clearance to enter in the climb or indeed laterally.
#1895689
Mats pt 1 (and other procedures) aside, what would the reason be for not allowing "climb FL70" to be an implicit clearance into CAS? What does "cleared to enter controlled airspace in the climb FL70" really achieve for any party? I think it is very much a UK thing, as I remember when I first flew 'abroad' I seemed to cause great confusion trying to get a controller to say "cleared to enter" anything, as it was all just implied by speaking with them.

Anecdotally, dozens of times per year I fly from a bit of uncontrolled airspace in the UK into a TMA in the UK, and I would say 95% of the time I am just given headings and levels to fly, only about 5% of the time does a controller say "Cleared to enter controlled airspace on the heading/in the descent" etc. I would never question it because in my mind there is no ambiguity or doubt, and apparently non in most of the controllers views either.
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#1895691
OhNoCB wrote:Anecdotally, dozens of times per year I fly from a bit of uncontrolled airspace in the UK into a TMA in the UK, and I would say 95% of the time I am just given headings and levels to fly, only about 5% of the time does a controller say "Cleared to enter controlled airspace on the heading/in the descent" etc. I would never question it because in my mind there is no ambiguity or doubt, and apparently non in most of the controllers views either.


Usually, I get "cleared to enter controlled airspace" is when I ask to "to join controlled airspace" otherwise as you said 95% of time, you get tactical heading & altitude instructions and you go with them :thumleft:

The only time when I had to clarify is when I get "turn 220, climb FL250" on initial contact, I had to explain we are C172S and want to level at FL80 (who has time to look at FPL level & route :lol: )