Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1895858
OhNoCB wrote:Mats pt 1 (and other procedures) aside, what would the reason be for not allowing "climb FL70" to be an implicit clearance into CAS? What does "cleared to enter controlled airspace in the climb FL70" really achieve for any party? I think it is very much a UK thing, as I remember when I first flew 'abroad' I seemed to cause great confusion trying to get a controller to say "cleared to enter" anything, as it was all just implied by speaking with them.

Given the signifcant amount of class G in the UK the switch from OCAS to CAS is quite significant, and the rule is probably just redundancy so a mis-given/misheard heading or alitude/flight level won't cause a CAS bust (in the sense that a climb/turn instruction that gets you into CAS but no clr2enter is an illogical combination so something's wrong, either ATC mispoke or you misheard).
Bear in mind that in most other countries you're in something like class E airspace very soon after takeoff and thus for IFR purposes already in CAS, so there's no sense of requesting or providing cleared-to-enter. E.g., if I depart a smaller airfield in Germany on a Z-plan I'd call Langen INFO after leaving the circuit and say something like "G-xyz would like to pick up our IFR clearance at waypoint x" (whatever I filed) and they'd give me an initial heading and climb and hand me to the ATC sector in charge, and one of the two confirms the IFR route clearance, but no "clrd2enter" as I'm in IFR CAS already .
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#1895868
Yes in most countries with Echo, you are in controlled airspace already, you just need positive ATC clearance to switch VFR/IFR (this gets confused with the need for ATC clerance to fly IFR in Golf uncontrolled airspace)

Most "IFR only" or "VFR only" pilots have no clue if they are in Golf vs Echo and what is the difference between the two, only those who mix VFR & IFR rules would know the difference...even more puzzling when you hear German or US pilot with 1000h IFR telling you one need ATC clerance to fly IFR in Golf or talk about how one can got caught "VFR in IMC" in Golf without ATC while being IR rated & equipped :lol: whereas, all these concerns tend to make more sense in Echo :wink:

However, in most places where Alpha or Charlie TMA sits over Golf, you do get to hear "cleared to join" on entering controlled airspace by climb or "own separation/cancel" on leaving controlled airspace by descent, this is the case of Paris TMA or Madrid TMA (which are managed like London TMA as the ATC looking after it does not offer any form of FIS OCAS bellow)
#1895903
Ibra wrote:
Harleyatrix wrote:I would never consider entering their zone


Sorry to be pedantic but the airspace in question is not a “controlled zone” (ATZ/CTR) it’s a “controlled area” (CTA/TMA) or “controlled airway”, the request is not to “enter or transit” it’s to “join or climb” :D

In the UK a 'control zone' operates from the surface to a defined upper limit and a 'control area', whether in the form of a TMA or airway operates upwards from a defined lower limit above the surface
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1896461
Chilli Monster wrote:
Irv Lee wrote:one sees a radar heading outside CAS heading into CAS as permission to enter


What’s a “Radar Heading”? You’re either on a Heading, or you’re own Navigation. The word “Radar” is superfluous.

Their term during the argument
#1896579
Irv Lee wrote:
Chilli Monster wrote:
Irv Lee wrote:one sees a radar heading outside CAS heading into CAS as permission to enter

What’s a “Radar Heading”? You’re either on a Heading, or you’re own Navigation. The word “Radar” is superfluous.

Their term during the argument

At the danger of being baited to an answer by esteemed senior members of this forum who might know the answer already: a "radar heading" is ATC speak for a tactical clearance in controlled airspace, happens when they need to move you around e.g., while departing IFR in busy London airspace, and for shorter legs often seems easier for them to issue than something like "direct to" an intersection.
I've never been given a "radar heading" while OCAS in the UK. Technically they should only issue it when you are under ATC control in CAS. So in Golf airspace, in practice it usually means you are issued "G-xyz turn heading abc; cleared to enter CAS" while OCAS, and on entry it will be "G-xyz, radar control, make that heading a radar heading".
"Radar heading" is a clearance to fly that heading in CAS ... means you have to hold it until they issue something else (e.g., "own navigation" if VFR or "direct to x then as filed" when IFR). In that context the "radar" part is not superfluous.
#1896581
The words “Radar Heading” do not appear in the CAP413 and should not be used by Controllers.

“Fly Heading”
“Turn Right Heading”
“Report your Heading”

The word Radar was probably removed a few years ago, but some still use it.

PS what would I say if I wasn’t using radar when you were under control using alternative surveillance systems?

It is why I no longer have an APR (Approach Radar) rating, but an APS (Approach Surveillance).
#1896588
A bit of off topic, I noticed LARS “ATC” and APP “ATC” also give (radar) headings while OCAS on IFR (radar) services (e.g. Traffic, Deconfliction, Approach) but I understand these are not clearances to enter en-route controlled airspace just flight information service (FIS service given by an ATC person in Golf), the distinction rarely matters as they would rarely vector in airspace but in case of lost communication while on “vectors OCAS”, you have to stay away from airspace: 7min or 20min from ICAO on 7600 is of no use in these scenarios !

However, if one is talking to “en-route ATC” or handed to them by “secondary ATC” on vector while OCAS then getting vector or climb is clearly a clearance to enter airspace, the question what one do if they lost comms before entering airspace? well you keep flying that heading on 7600 until you can resume flight plan or reach your destination, for altitude you can pick between min safe altitude of track, lowest min radar altitude of the heading, the base of controlled airspace, your assigned altitude or your filed flight plan cruise level, depending on weather & terrain, you are entitled to fly any of these altitudes in exceptional circumstances

ICAO, SERA, ANO, MATS…have not spent much time thinking about lost of comms in IMC while IFR CAS/OCAS, especially in busy “vectoring only TMA” but pilots are expected to figure that answer themselve (in VMC, the answers are obvious)
Last edited by Ibra on Mon Jan 31, 2022 9:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#1896592
Ibra wrote:ICAO, SERA, ANO, MATS…have not spent much time thinking about lost of comms in IMC while IFR CAS/OCAS, especially in busy “vectoring only TMA” but pilots are expected to figure that answer themselve (in VMC, the answers are obvious)


The UK AIP has guidance for you;

https://www.aurora.nats.co.uk/htmlAIP/Publications/2022-01-27-AIRAC/html/index-en-GB.html

ENR1.1 then search;

3.4.2 Radio Failure Procedures For Pilots

Enjoy!
#1896609
Thanks @AlanM, I am sure I did read that one 10 times, another read or two iterations with a pint and I will be in good shape :D

Now, assuming I have done everything right for OCAS/CAS departure then cruised IFR fine with all DCT, HDG, SID before hooking to my FPL exactly as ATC would expect me to do, I am really puzzled by the last item: in IMC, carry an instrument approach while keep watch for any instruction with visual signals, I think I need another beer for this one :thumleft:
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