Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By ian_737
#1895128
Hi guys,

I hold a British PPL and am considering embarking on getting my Flight Instructors Rating to teach up to the level of the licence I hold. I.e. PPL.

Can anyone tell me if the full FIR is required for this?

I remember some years ago things changed in terms of not needing a CPL to train up to PPL level so wondering if the instructor rating changed with maybe it being limited etc?
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By Irv Lee
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895139
you'll need an FI(A) assuming aeroplanes not helis. (Using FIR might confuse), and you'd need the full FI course, if you want to teach from scratch, and you would need to be part of a formal school to do such teaching, if 'sep'. Purely on time and cost involved, have you actually looked at 'CRI' ? - almost everything except teaching for a licence that someone does not already have.
By Fellsteruk
#1895218
@Irv Lee if your teaching LAPL so no CPL can you do it on a class two medical or does an FI regardless need a class one?
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By WelshRichy
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895247
You’ll need to sit and pass all 13x CPL or ATPL exams but don’t actually need to obtain a CPL to teach ab-initio PPL. Without the exam passes you’ll be limited to teach for the LAPL only with regards ab-initio training.

A Class 2 medical will be fine even if you wish to obtain an IRI and/or CRI(ME) in the future to teach the ME-IR course (assuming you have an ME-IR as well on your PPL). The only time you would need a Class 1 is if you were going to teach the CPL course and then you’d require a CPL or ATPL in any case.

You will need to attend a Flight Instructor Course and pass the Assessment of Competence, average time to complete the course is ~6 weeks and involves 125 hours of ground school and 30 hours of flight training. This course is exactly the same whether you are to teach only the LAPL or the LAPL/PPL (with CPL exam passes).

Once you have your FI certificate you’ll initially be restricted so no first solos or first navigation solos and you’ll be supervised by a fully unrestricted FI. To remove the restriction you’ll need 25 solo sign-offs and at least a hundred hours of flight instruction given.

On-Track Aviation have a good breakdown on FI requirements:

https://www.ontrackaviation.com/fi-aeroplane.html

Standards Document 10(A) is a great introduction to the FI course, details AoC expectations, and within it are 250 questions that really have you thinking about them, these form the oral portion of the AoC. In preparation for my FIC, I have just finished going through answering them by researching and writing my answers down in a document, 137 of A4 pages in total! My answers are probably a load of waffle though but has helped cement some of the theory into my head.

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?catid=1&pagetype=65&appid=11&mode=detail&id=1202

On-Track Aviation also sell their instructor manual separately which is a fabulous document.

The CRI (SE) course is also an option…. Fabulous course which takes around a week and once you pass the AoC will allow you to teach anyone who holds or has ever held a licence. Differences training, hour with an instructor, SEP revalidations etc. No ab-initio training. You don’t need the CPL exams for this either.

https://www.ontrackaviation.com/cri-land-se.html

To add privileges to teach the Night Rating will require a couple of hours ground school and an hours flight with an FIC Instructor, this can be completed whilst restricted and can even be part of your initial FIC if you time the dark nights right.

Whatever you decide all the best and keep us informed!
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By Sir Morley Steven
#1895501
If you are based anywhere near us (Blackbushe) pop in and see us. We are the only school there that does the FI rating.
You do need CPL theory along with the FI rating to teach LAPL though and you can’t get away with teaching “LAPL” up to first solo and swapping to PPL. I spoke to the CAA and they confirmed you can’t switch mid course.
Personally I think the CPL knowledge is wrong. PPL instructors need to teach PPL theory. But its an EASA rule.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895504
Sir Morley Steven wrote:Personally I think the CPL knowledge is wrong. PPL instructors need to teach PPL theory. But its an EASA rule.


I think it's an ICAO rule.

The problem is that it's an ICAO rule probably because in the US, a CPL is just a PPL+, i.e. it gives you that bit more knowledge than a PPL. In Europe a CPL is an ATPL- ... so the theory course is a lot more convoluted.

Requiring the CPL exam in the US is probably sensible.
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895507
Sir Morley Steven wrote:... You do need CPL theory along with the FI rating to teach LAPL though...

Eh?
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By mpk
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895530
Think he means FI teaching LAPL does NOT need CPL TK.

Also when did the 'can't change mid course' happen, I thought it had to happen within the first 10 hours?
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By WelshRichy
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895705
mpk wrote:Also when did the 'can't change mid course' happen, I thought it had to happen within the first 10 hours?


I can't answer that question but I do remember something and found a reference to this in the Spring 2020 issue of Trainingcom:

https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/TrainingCom%20Spring%202020.pdf

This is especially prevalent with Instructors who hold a “LAPL only” remark endorsed on their Flight Instructor certificate. FI with such an endorsement are reminded that they cannot provide instruction towards the PPL license. If training is conducted by the holder of a valid instructor certificate who is not appropriately qualified and the UK CAA is to be the State of License issue, they will reject the candidate’s application and require them to redo the required flight training.

Although, it is accepted that there are similarities between the LAPL and PPL syllabi, an applicant who has commenced a LAPL course must complete this course and Skill Test before commencing the course for the PPL. In addition, an FI with a LAPL only limitation should not supervise students undertaking a PPL course for their solo flights. FI who applies to have the supervision limitation removed who have supervised PPL solo flight will not be accepted.


No time limit to decide between LAPL/PPL course is within the update but I presume, from the above wording and @Sir Morley Steven conversation with the CAA, it is from the word go.
Last edited by WelshRichy on Wed Jan 26, 2022 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By WelshRichy
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1895706
Paul_Sengupta wrote:I think it's an ICAO rule.

The problem is that it's an ICAO rule probably because in the US, a CPL is just a PPL+, i.e. it gives you that bit more knowledge than a PPL. In Europe a CPL is an ATPL- ... so the theory course is a lot more convoluted.

Requiring the CPL exam in the US is probably sensible.


Totally agree and with regards the FAA CPL! The written took me two nights worth of study with the Gleim book, one written exam and four days of training (though I did just complete an FAA IR with a few months study beforehand). By contrast the 13 x EASA CPL exams took me nine months to study for and pass, completely different kettle of fish.

It appears as though you have to purchase or subscribe to receive up to date the ICAO Annex 1 for Personnel Licensing but I have found a "free" 2018 edition online, can't see it having changed that much:

https://web.shgm.gov.tr/documents/sivilhavacilik/files/pdf/saglik_birimi/ICAO_Annex_1_12th.pdf

2.8.1.1 Knowledge
The applicant shall have met the knowledge requirements for the issue of a commercial pilot license as appropriate to the category of aircraft included in the license. In addition, the applicant shall have demonstrated a level of knowledge appropriate to the privileges granted to the holder of a flight instructor rating, in at least the following areas:

<snip>

2.8.1.3 Experience
The applicant shall have met the experience requirements for the issue of a commercial pilot license as specified in 2.4.3.1, 2.4.4.1, 2.4.5.1 and 2.4.6.1 for each aircraft category, as appropriate.


I had thought a CPL was required under ICAO and the CAA had a difference filed with them, perhaps my thinking was this way due to PPL/FIs being issued with BCPLs back in the late 90's so they conformed to ICAO requirements.

Looks like Part-FCL adheres to ICAO requirements near enough to the letter as it doesn't actually state a CPL is required, just experience requirements are required. In my (non-FI) opinion, the requirement for the full 13 x CPL exams that should be re-visited, perhaps a pre-entry written test if you don't hold a CPL/ATPL?