Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By NeilWin
#1893880
Afternoon All,

I'm looking for a wing fold light aircraft with good strip capability and have seen this:

https://afors.com/aircraftView/53969/Av ... stol-wings

Has anyone got any experience of these types and any "top tips" for an inspection? Is this a reasonable price (looks a little steep to me - 1993 build - I've seen more recent types go for £10k ish). Also, it has very few hours, approx 315 for a 28 year old aircraft seems odd, the Jab has circa 220 hours so was presumably fitted to replace a 582 at some point.

I have some C42 experience so well aware of the lack of inertia issues with these types of aircraft and appreciate that if the donk stops you have to manage energy very carefully. Apart from that I know very little and even less about ownership.

Any insights or intel much appreciated. Thanks

Neil
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1893928
I'd start by looking at the weight and balance and see if it has sufficient capacity to fit your needs.

MTOW is only 463kg, and with a Jab and a nosewheel, you might find fuel and baggage is limited two up.

Hours do seem low, but it's never been a school or rental aeroplane, and it's fairly lightweight so owners have probably been cautious about weather limits. My Kitfox is the same age and has less than 500hrs.

Avids were originally designed for rotax 2 strokes, but doesn't mean Jab is a bad conversion subject to weight. I wouldn't discount a Jab on reliability, my 'fox is on it's third Rotax, can't be worse.

Avids and early Kitfoxes are very similar, my 'fox has even less inertia than the C42B's.
Close look at wing roots and folding points.

It looks tidy, so £16k doesn't look far out to me tbh. Go fly it, and plan on getting rid of the nosewheel, it'll look worth £16k without that!
TheFarmer, NeilWin, Flintstone and 1 others liked this
User avatar
By TheFarmer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1893929
Hi Neil

The Avid is a nice little aircraft, and (as I'm sure you know, very closely related to the Kitfox, of which I am a big fan). That particular one looks quite tidy, and certainly worth a look. All I would say is:

1. Don't be put off by the Jabiru engine, but do get someone who knows them really well to have a look at it, and the logs etc. Get it nice and hot when you fly it, and look at oil temps and pressures etc. If the oil temp is on the high side in January, think what it might be like in August on a hot day. Having a Jab engine is like having another wife; they can either be a great, and will will serve you well for years, or an utter nightmare that will empty your bank account.

2. Check the empty weight (and when it was last done). These lighter end of the market machines are sometimes built quite heavy, and that just eats into your useful load.

3. It will be a little bit more cramped than a C42, but if you're happy with that, that's fine.

4. Inertia is less of an issue than a lot of people fear. If you buy it, go up to 4,000 feet (solo) and really get to know it. Stall it, see if it behaves, and mess around so you get to know each other for when you're nearer to the ground. Basically, learn how to respect it, and you will be fine.

5. You say you know little about ownership. My advice is to try and throw yourself into the LAA world of knowledgeable people, many of whom also have great skills and will do various jobs WITH you on it for small lumps pf cash, or whatever their tipple is. You need to be prepared to learn the basics though, most of which is really easy. ie how to change the oil, check the prop bolt torque etc etc. After a while, LAA aircraft ownership in itself becomes an enjoyable part of the aviation world you will have, not just the physical flying.

6. Yes, I also think that £16,000 is a bit steep. I'd say a sale will happen at around the £13k mark, but all sellers will ask more than they want - it's human nature.

Anyway, good luck!

Do I have any reservations about that particular machine? Well, perhaps that I think if you ever came to sell it again it would be more appealing to buyers if the third wheel was.......at the other end, and this is only because most people who buy and Avid/Kitfox type want the tailwheel experience too.

Let us know how you get on, and I hope that's been of some help.
Sooty25, NeilWin, Flintstone and 2 others liked this
By NeilWin
#1893948
Chaps, thank you so much for your replies, very useful indeed. I understand the empty weight to be 269kg. That gives me a useful load of 194kgs, I'm 89 kgs. I'm mostly going to use the aircraft for the next 5 years or so to go flying with my son whose 9. I reckon that should give me some fair wiggle room, even as he grows. I'm using 0.72kg for 1ltr of fuel and estimated 15 lph for the Jab. This should give me some ok range too.

If you think my maths or the empty weight are dodgy then please let me know :lol:

I'm off to Scotland to look at it on Saturday (cheeky little 16 hour round trip by road)! If you know of any LAA inspectors or Jab experts in and around South Lanarkshire then let me know!! I'll happily pay for their valuable time.

Joining the LAA is definitely part of the plan, and getting my hands dirty is (at least for me) part of the pleasure I think with owning an aircraft like this.

Thanks again. Neil
TheFarmer liked this
User avatar
By Sooty25
#1893962
Two adults at 89kg leaves about 1.5hrs fuel.

I'd recommend downloading a copy of the LAA TADS document and go through everything in that, then check it has all been complied with on the aeroplane. That will give you an idea of the builders attention to detail, an the past inspectors.

This link should download it.

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TADs/189%20AVID.pdf

Same with the Jab

http://www.lightaircraftassociation.co.uk/engineering/TADs/E03%20JABIRU.pdf

Allow time to read through the paperwork, and check whether work recommended by inspectors has been done. It will give you an idea to how dedicated the owners have been.

Do the most thorough "pre-flight" you've ever done. Stuff that is wrong, usually looks wrong!

I've never flown an Avid but it probably won't fly as easy as a C42, the kitfox certainly doesn't. Don't be shocked if it feels more sensitive, suffers adverse yaw and directional instability compared to the C42. None of that is bad, just different, and the C42 is very easy to fly even if the ergonomics are a bit odd.
NeilWin liked this
By Big Dex
#1893983
I used to have a (912) Escapade, another Avid/Kitfox variant. I bought it to replace my old Skyranger, after something a bit faster (which it certainly was). The wing-fold was superb. I never became as comfortable with it as I was with the SKR; whilst I struggle to identify what it was about it's handling that I didn't like, I didn't like it as much. I stuck with it for around 4 years and 200+ hours before selling it on, replacing it with a Europa, which I have been delighted with from the start (and have now owned for nearly 8 years).

As Sooty alludes; my experience was that the handling, whilst perfectly safe and predictable, was not as balanced and pleasant as the aircraft I have flown before and since. Might just be me, or the variant I owned, but I missed the SKR until I bought the Europa.
NeilWin liked this
#1894045
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
TheFarmer wrote:After a while, LAA aircraft ownership in itself becomes an enjoyable part of the aviation world you will have, not just the physical flying.


Any idea at what point this happens...?




At the point when the Permit comes up for renewal !
User avatar
By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1894133
Loco parentis wrote:At the point when the Permit comes up for renewal !


Mine's done that quite a few times over the years but it's just the same as being on a C of A, except more paperwork is required and the rules are stricter. And you need a test flight, which you don't on a C of A.
By Loco parentis
#1894152
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Loco parentis wrote:At the point when the Permit comes up for renewal !


Mine's done that quite a few times over the years but it's just the same as being on a C of A, except more paperwork is required and the rules are stricter. And you need a test flight, which you don't on a C of A.




Paul,

In cost terms, Permit v C of A can be the difference between aviation Heaven and aviation Hell. Why so ? Because with Permit you can do- it- yourself. With C of A you enter a highly regulated system peopled by expensive engineers who like to winter in the Bahamas !

I've had sixty years of 'toughing' it out in both regimes.