Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By CloudHound
#1893345
Not sure as to the legal background that has required this Decision but it is worth reading
http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=11086

My eye was drawn to this final note
7. RADIO MANDATORY ZONE (RMZ)
7.1
RMZ
*a) (aircraft call sign), (type of aircraft), (position), (level), IFR (or VFR), (intentions), (other information).
Initial call before entry
b) (aircraft call sign) ROGER.
Note.— Once the pilot’s initial call has been acknowledged by ATS, they may enter the RMZ.
c) (aircraft call sign) STANDBY.
Note.— Where a pilot is instructed to “STANDBY” following their initial call, they should remain outside the RMZ until their initial call has been acknowledged by ATS.
‘*’ denotes pilot transmission.

My bold
User avatar
By xtophe
#1893349
Dave W wrote:Controlled Airspace, then. Sigh.


Well, at least that has the merit of being clear and not being a retrospective interpretation a la Barton.

Also, as we're supposed to call some miles/minutes in advance, we should have some other chances to call again. If we are constantly told to "Standy", then it is MOR and FCS 1522
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By Cub
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1893359
I don't believe the revised policy is meant to preclude the use of an RMZ as a monitoring function only, i.e. you can enter without establishing two-way but under specific conditions, as per the extant Hawarden RMZ arrangements.

I have asked for some clarification on the point.
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By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1893363
Let's hope so.

Although even if so it will likely discourage calls and encourage monitoring only, having the effect thereby of reducing/minimising the SA of all aircraft operating in the area.

I guess that's fine - works OK with Listening Squawks - but seems an unfortunate missed opportunity.

Especially when coupled with the proposed replacement of ATZ with RMZ under the Airspace Modernisation Strategy consultation.
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By ls8pilot
#1893386
Also of interest (my highlights):

GM2 to SERA.6005(b) Requirements for communication and SSR transponder
CARRIAGE OF RADIO NAVIGATION EQUIPMENT
........
(b) These highlight the requirement for flights operating in airspace designated by the CAA as a TMZ to carry and operate SSR Mode S Elementary Surveillance transponders, unless in compliance with alternative provisions prescribed for that particular airspace by the air navigation service provider (ANSP). Such alternative provisions may include the use of alternate forms of electronic conspicuity data, such as ADS-B, and that satisfies the pressure altitude reporting requirement for a TMZ, where their use has been addressed within the airspace change safety assessment.


So, if I read it correctly, that opens the possibility for an ANSP to allow alternative(s) to Mode S - although whether anyone will is another matter of course. It's interesting they only say "such as ADS-B" , so presumably an ANSP could allow other options?
By chevvron
#1893402
CloudHound wrote:Not sure as to the legal background that has required this Decision but it is worth reading
http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/modalapplication.aspx?appid=11&mode=detail&id=11086

My eye was drawn to this final note
7. RADIO MANDATORY ZONE (RMZ)
7.1
RMZ
*a) (aircraft call sign), (type of aircraft), (position), (level), IFR (or VFR), (intentions), (other information).
Initial call before entry
b) (aircraft call sign) ROGER.
Note.— Once the pilot’s initial call has been acknowledged by ATS, they may enter the RMZ.
c) (aircraft call sign) STANDBY.
Note.— Where a pilot is instructed to “STANDBY” following their initial call, they should remain outside the RMZ until their initial call has been acknowledged by ATS.
‘*’ denotes pilot transmission.

My bold

Sounds suspiciously like the way Class D airspace is managed in the USA.
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By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1893416
A response of ‘<aircraft call sign> standby’ to a zone transit request for a Class C or D in the US actually constitutes a clearance to enter the controlled airspace, i.e., it is not an instruction to stay clear until a message has been passed by the pilot, as is cited above.

Iceman 8)
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By xtophe
#1893422
Iceman wrote:Are there any ANSP in the UK who can actually pick up ADSB ?

Aberdeen (but for the offshore bit)
Some military airport depending the deployment status of project Marshall and if they ticked the good boxes.
Are FISO unit considered ANSP ? If yes, Barton and Goodwood and maybe others
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By Ian Melville
#1893423
xtophe wrote:
Also, as we're supposed to call some miles/minutes in advance, we should have some other chances to call again. If we are constantly told to "Standy", then it is MOR and FCS 1522

Doesn't standby mean you stay off the PTT and await them to come back to you :scratch:
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By Rob P
#1893428
Precisely. Hence the suggestion that we need the ability to call back before reaching the boundary.

Rob P
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By xtophe
#1893429
Ian Melville wrote:Doesn't standby mean you stay off the PTT and await them to come back to you :scratch:

Wait but not for ever. ATCO are humans they could forget.
So I'd wait 1 min if freq is silent, a bit more is busy and try again.
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By ls8pilot
#1893444
Ian Melville wrote:
xtophe wrote:
Also, as we're supposed to call some miles/minutes in advance, we should have some other chances to call again. If we are constantly told to "Standy", then it is MOR and FCS 1522

Doesn't standby mean you stay off the PTT and await them to come back to you :scratch:

I agree with @Dave W , this means an RMZ becomes controlled airspace that you can be denied access to by simply being told "standby" .... with busy areas such as the area around Oxford, and limited controller and radio channel capacity I can see this being an issue at peak times.
Rob P liked this
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By peter272
#1893477
Over the years I've been 'stoodby' many times and had a choice of orbiting, or search for an alternative route. At times I've left the provider before they've got back to me - is that a denial of service?

I really don't like the look of these proposals as my current airfield is well inside the range we should be in contact with the ANSP, so we'll have to see what arrangements will be in place for launching - phone call to ATC, discrete squawk or head away until we can get permission.

Also it looks like a further bit of equippage - again

Good game, good game