[SteakAndAle]

As above - while looking at aircraft, I've noticed that some (e.g. factory built Sportcruisers) are listed on G-INFO as being under a CAA Permit to Fly, rather than an LAA Permit.

I understand that the LAA is limited in what factory built types it can look after (recent 600kg changes notwithstanding), and hence why these factory built aircraft aren't under the LAA.

My question is: what are the practical implications of being on a CAA Permit? Do you have the same flexibility on maintenance with the LAA, or are you tied to Part M certified shops with all the cost & faff that involves?

(I've googled this, and although there are various bits of legislation and info on transferring EASA Permit -> CAA Permit post Brexit, I haven't yet come across much practical info)

[riverrock]

"It Depends".
Have a read at https://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP733.PDF
It is a bit old (note LAA has changed name) but gives an overview.

In theory, if you don't like the LAA, you could have your aircraft entirely administered directly with CAA with essentially the same rules. Just expect to pay magnitudes more, the CAA to have no real knowledge about your aircraft, and everything to take years instead of days.

Some aircraft with EASA Permits are administered via LAA. Easiest start point is probably to talk to an existing owner about arrangements.

[Loco parentis]

Broadly, the LAAs remit is to make flying affordable for the many and the CAAs (Campaign Against Aviation) remit is to make recreational aviation as difficult and unaffordable as possible for the may.

This seems to be a popular view.

[NickA]

There are very few CAA permit aircraft on the register (less than 100 I believe). Many of them (perhaps all?) were previously on EASA permits and all the paperwork was copied and pasted over (e.g. E18b will become CAA18b or something like that).

I operate a Pipersport on CAA permit. I don't have experience of an LAA aircraft. CAA permits are issued each year most often with a surveyor visit. This is a massive pain and it is expensive and a waste of time. In the past it was difficult if not impossible to make any changes to the aircraft specification (e.g. new avionics, autopilot and so on). That may change now.

Another issue is that since Brexit there is no arrangement that allows for permit aircraft to flown in the EU. The agreement made by LAA does not extend to Part 21 permit aircraft, for obvious reasons and, to be honest, I think the CAA simply forgot to include the permit aircraft like ours in their agreement with EASA. I am hoping that this will soon be rectified but not holding my breath.

It's not all bad news, though. The maintenance regime is much less onerous than for CofA aircraft and parts are cheap (don't need certified parts). This combined with the aircraft being factory built makes for a pretty consistent standard (AFAIK). If the CAA fixed the EU flying restriction and got rid of the need for physical survey (which they have been promising for years) it would be fine.

[Loco parentis]

Every year as Permit renewal time approaches, an LAA Inspector inspects the aircraft awaiting renewal and satisfies him/herself that any work required has been performed properly and correctly. The owner or his/her agent then flight tests the aircraft according to an LAA prescription. The owner/agent completed paperwork is passed to the LAA inspector for signature, a Permit fee is paid and the new Permit issued.

Unless you have very deep pockets grab yourself a Permit aircraft as quickly as you can.

[Kemble Pitts]

Actually, there is no such thing as an LAA (or BMAA) Permit to Fly. All of the Permits to Fly for long term operation are issued by CAA.

What you will have is a CAA Permit to Fly administered by LAA (or BMAA) or CAA. The difference comes in that LAA and BMAA are rather more pragmatic in what they will accept (and thus support a recommendation to CAA) as being airworthy and acceptable.

[Shoestring Flyer]

The situation with the former factory built EASA Permit Sportcruisers/PS28's/Pipersports that are in the UK is now less than ideal in that they have all been transferred post Brexit to a CAA Permit to Fly and therefore are classed as a Part 21 aircraft with all the maintence expense that involves.
See here:-
https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition ... ft-owners/
Unfortunately these aircraft currently cannot be transferred to the much less onerous LAA Permit to Fly.

The only upside to this situation is that if you are in the market currently for a Sportcruiser you could probably get one of these CAA Permit Sportcruisers at a much lower second hand price than a LAA Permit Sportcruiser!

[Genghis the Engineer]

I understood that BMAA was looking at the possibility of taking them on (after all, a factory built permit is what a microlight Type Approved Permit to Fly is). I've no recent knowledge of how those discussions went.

G

[Rob L]

Actually, there is no such thing as an LAA (or BMAA) Permit to Fly. All of the Permits to Fly for long term operation are issued by CAA.

What you will have is a CAA Permit to Fly administered by LAA (or BMAA) or CAA. The difference comes in that LAA and BMAA are rather more pragmatic in what they will accept (and thus support a recommendation to CAA) as being airworthy and acceptable.

That's sort of closest to the truth, IMHO. A WWII Spitfire or later Hawker Hunter or Vulcan operates on a Permit to Fly (as does a J-3 Cub) because there is no Certification basis for it to maintain a civilian airworthiness certificate.

[NickA]

The situation with the former factory built EASA Permit Sportcruisers/PS28's/Pipersports that are in the UK is now less than ideal in that they have all been transferred post Brexit to a CAA Permit to Fly and therefore are classed as a Part 21 aircraft with all the maintence expense that involves.
See here:-
https://info.caa.co.uk/uk-eu-transition ... ft-owners/
Unfortunately these aircraft currently cannot be transferred to the much less onerous LAA Permit to Fly.

The only upside to this situation is that if you are in the market currently for a Sportcruiser you could probably get one of these CAA Permit Sportcruisers at a much lower second hand price than a LAA Permit Sportcruiser!

I haven't noticed any difference in the maintenance expense since moving to Part 21. Our SDMP is unchanged, same service intervals and the permit issue follows the same process as before. Has anything else changed?

[Shoestring Flyer]

I haven't noticed any difference in the maintenance expense since moving to Part 21. Our SDMP is unchanged, same service intervals and the permit issue follows the same process as before. Has anything else changed?

That is good to hear that there is no diference in your maintenance costs between EASA Permit and CAA Permit however your costs would be massively reduced if you were hyperthetically able to be on a LAA Permit.
Your annual Permit cost to the LAA for a Sportcruiser would be a mere £200. If you did your own maintenance the only other cost would be whatever your LAA Inspector may happen to charge you for checking your work. Some Inspectors do it for love, others do it for a living and therefore make a small charge but usually it's just peanuts in comparison to the CAA world.
Owning an LAA Permit aircraft is just a totally different world and for most of us makes flying so affordable!

[NickA]

I'm sure that is true. I have no objection to having an LAA a/c and I would almost certainly go down that route, or microlight, if I was getting a new one. That said, I would still want an engineer to do the maintenance. I don't have much of a clue myself..

[Rob P]

It is actually easier than you'd think @NickA .

Routine maintenance is a series of repetitive tasks. The way it has worked with my RV history is that the first time the inspector did each task. (to be fair he'd sold me the aircraft). The second time I'd do it as he watched. From then I'd do it myself and he merely checked it painstakingly before signing it off.

As he inspects the rest of the aircraft minutely you can be sure nothing is missed.

It's even easier if you sell a half share and two of you work together.

I'm no expert now, but I'm semi-competent at least.

Rob P

[NickA]

Thanks Rob. I will certainly bear this in mind, especially when I have more time in retirement. If that ever comes!

[SteakAndAle]

There are very few CAA permit aircraft on the register (less than 100 I believe). Many of them (perhaps all?) were previously on EASA permits and all the paperwork was copied and pasted over (e.g. E18b will become CAA18b or something like that).

I operate a Pipersport on CAA permit. I don't have experience of an LAA aircraft. CAA permits are issued each year most often with a surveyor visit. This is a massive pain and it is expensive and a waste of time. In the past it was difficult if not impossible to make any changes to the aircraft specification (e.g. new avionics, autopilot and so on). That may change now.

Another issue is that since Brexit there is no arrangement that allows for permit aircraft to flown in the EU. The agreement made by LAA does not extend to Part 21 permit aircraft, for obvious reasons and, to be honest, I think the CAA simply forgot to include the permit aircraft like ours in their agreement with EASA. I am hoping that this will soon be rectified but not holding my breath.

It's not all bad news, though. The maintenance regime is much less onerous than for CofA aircraft and parts are cheap (don't need certified parts). This combined with the aircraft being factory built makes for a pretty consistent standard (AFAIK). If the CAA fixed the EU flying restriction and got rid of the need for physical survey (which they have been promising for years) it would be fine.

Thanks, that's very helpful! So just to be clear (bearing in mind the discussion below that post) - aircraft that are Part 21 *but* on a *CAA* Permit do *not* need to be maintained by a Part M shop? Can owner maintenance be done like on an LAA aircraft, or does it still have to be a professional of some sort? If the former, who inspects & signs off - is it a CAA surveyor again?

Inability to make changes or go to Europe does sound like a pain. I assume there is no route to convert CAA Permit -> LAA at the moment?