Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1886518
Edward Bellamy wrote:VFR public transport in an SEP is allowed, on an AOC obviously. Historically operators who conduct A-A flights with members of public have done so under the guise of trial lessons, so the market for SEPs on AOCs is limited, but they do exist. Various warbirds on SSAC as well.


I guess as far as risk disclosure to public is concerned (and GA reputation risk), I don’t see much difference between trial flight in club and flight booked on Wingly? none will achieves the safety standard of public transport I get on B737 or A320 ticket on AoC held by RyanAir or EasyJet both

It will be good if we have some data to support safety track records of “any flight involving money” say VFR AOC SEP operations, Wingly A-B flights, trial A-A flights in ATO/DTO and Microlights/Gliders and have those stats disclosed to public vs say CAT flying and leave the choice to the consumers? or maybe it’s hard to compare and infer conclusions due to limited number of hours in each

As far as safety of wingly flights are concerned, I am not aware of fatal or non-fatal accidents on these (or if anyone has an AAIB report for incident/accident?) but their numbers are not yet statistically significant, I did read on their website something like 2.5m€ money exchanging hands and between 8000h-20000h, not yet big enough to do stats but it’s near where GA flying starts to have accidents…obviously Wingly A to B flights on longue distance will tend to be way risky (weather, terrain, unfamiliar places, unknown pob), I guess it will not take very long to figure out how much risks are there?

For risks during trial flights in “club/school environment”, I have no idea on number of hours surely there is enough data there to get a conclusion but I did already read few reports involving public, some were fatal, these were in aeroplanes, helicopters, gliders and lot of microlights: jammed control, loss of control, weather, landing accidents…

I think some transparency on GA risk and likelihood of accidents for non-informed public who pay for the flight would be healthier :thumleft: between pilots, family & friends it’s about trust rather than money & numbers :wink:
#1886523
But the difference between Wingly and a club trial lesson is that the latter is flown by an instructor and Wingly flights can be done by low-hours PPLs.

On some of the Wingly comments by passengers, they call the pilot 'our instructor' when it is clear they were no such thing.

A lot is down to the way the flight is advertised and the briefing the passengers get. Also, as in the Sala case, if the pilot is prepared to resist pressure to fly when it is likely to be iffy.
derekf, Stampe liked this
#1886527
peter272 wrote:But the difference between Wingly and a club trial lesson is that the latter is flown by an instructor and Wingly flights can be done by low-hours PPLs.


The problem is “how long is a piece of string”, without data on can just say what they wish?

Ideally, the PIC flying public for reward should have ICAO (CPL + IR + Class 1 medical) and hopefully 1500h mostly on type, this is the “gold standard” anything bellow this is likely to be short of what it takes to fly with public, then of course we can debate the conceptual safety in the hands of “low-hours PPL” vs “senior-pilot”, who fall bellow PT standards, cost share vs trial flights, low hours vs load of hours…but I prefer to see some real data on this

PS: Wingly just posted their reply on this

https://blog.wingly.io/en/an-open-lette ... sultation/
Last edited by Ibra on Fri Dec 03, 2021 8:24 pm, edited 2 times in total.
#1886532
peter272 wrote:But the difference between Wingly and a club trial lesson is that the latter is flown by an instructor and Wingly flights can be done by low-hours PPLs.


No, the bigger difference between Wingly and a club trial lesson is the former is a joy flight and the latter allows the participant to manipulate the controls.
#1886551
matthew_w100 wrote:Is passengers waggling the controls illegal then?

This comes up every now and again; I've never seen anyone manage to reference anything that shows it to be illegal.

Mine usually waggle wonderfully wildly. :thumleft:
MikeB, johnm, flybymike and 3 others liked this
#1886591
RisePilot wrote:
peter272 wrote:But the difference between Wingly and a club trial lesson is that the latter is flown by an instructor and Wingly flights can be done by low-hours PPLs.


No, the bigger difference between Wingly and a club trial lesson is the former is a joy flight and the latter allows the participant to manipulate the controls.

Was it not one time that flying clubs/schools ran some "joy flights" as "trial lessons", and had to be seen to impart some aviation knowledge on the "student" because of the licence issue?
Last edited by Boxkite on Sat Dec 04, 2021 9:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
#1886600
Dave W wrote:
matthew_w100 wrote:Is passengers waggling the controls illegal then?

This comes up every now and again; I've never seen anyone manage to reference anything that shows it to be illegal.

Mine usually waggle wonderfully wildly. :thumleft:


From the ANO for Part 21 aircraft:

A person may act as a pilot of an EASA aircraft without holding an appropriate licence granted, converted or rendered valid under the EASA Aircrew Regulation when undergoing flying training, including solo flying training authorised and supervised by a flight instructor.

Debate “act as a pilot of”

For non part 21 it is defined in ‘member of flight crew’ terminology
Dave W liked this
#1886608
Pilot is in charge and manipulating the controls

Passenger having a go is not a pilot any more than the autopilot is.....

Rules are made for guidance of wise men and the blind obedience of fools....
Ibra, flybymike, riverrock and 1 others liked this
#1886633
johnm wrote:Pilot is in charge and manipulating the controls

Passenger having a go is not a pilot any more than the autopilot is.....


When I last looked it up it was "Pilot is in charge and AT the controls". No mention of manipulating. But the phrasing of the rules changes so often and in so many places you could be right now.

I like your autopilot analogy. I treat a passenger manipulating the controls exactly as I would an autopilot - clear instructions, safe airspace, closely monitored and ready to take over in half a heartbeat. Also I am a sixteen stone ex-rugby player and I reckon I could overpower any passenger who could fit in the space left in my little aeroplane.
mick w, johnm, Flyin'Dutch' liked this
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