Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By Smaragd
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886924
VFRBimbler wrote:Maybe instead, before issuing anything, the likes of the CAA should recognise their shortcomings and promulgate draft communications for comment from those, including many forumites, who not only are more knowledgeable but also take pride in what they do. Hopefully the quality of communications would then improve and any unintended consequences would also be highlighted so that they could be addressed prior to issue, rather than have to issue a myriad of corrections or updates, which in themselves can serve to muddy the waters even more.


Today's cut and paste example:
Restricted Airspace (Temporary) - Portsmouth Harbour, 10 October - DRONE ONLY

Restriction of Flying Regulations for unmanned aircraft only for Portsmouth Harbour on 10 December 2021.

Details by NOTAM and in an AIS Briefing Sheet at http://www.nats.aero/ais.

SW2021/310
User avatar
By kanga
#1886989
terrybarr wrote:There's a an article on it in FlyinginIreland.
..


The BBC news website has been carrying retrospective articles on the lead-up to the signing of the Anglo-Irish Treaty a century ago (5 Dec 1921). In an item today there are featured images and gists on how various Irish newspapers recated to the text in their 6 Dec editions. Topically, it seems from the image of part of the front page of the Irish News, at the top right corner, that civil aviation between GB and the new Free State was addressed in the Treaty:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-59494435

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/976/cpspr ... shnews.jpg
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1887032
I've had a partial response from my Home Office Policy contact. It covers my Q3, which was:

Dave W wrote:3. The document states (on page 2): "If you are travelling between GB and another country within the Common Travel Area (NI, Ireland, the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man) and are using a port that is not police designated, you must still notify police at least 12 hours in advance of your journey. Failure to seek approval is a criminal offence under the Terrorism Act 2000." (My bold).
  • Please confirm the requirement for "Approval".

The answer is:
Home Office wrote:Regarding the Terrorism Act 2000 notification requirement, your question (3), you are correct, in the case of aircraft not operating for reward, if the airfield is non-designated, the requirement is to notify the relevant police force, it is not to seek approval.

So that's good. :thumleft:

They go on to say:
Home Office wrote:For (1) and (2), I have shared these with colleagues in HMRC as they own the policy for these particular issues.

I'll report back again when I have something for Qs 1 &2 - likely by the end of this week. I'll eventually be asking if the HMRC letter etc will be re-published with amendments.

Q4 is now resolved as noted earlier, and was about the 18 month extension to the Blanket Interim Certificate of Agreement. Like others, I was impressed at how positively the whole CoAA process has been undertaken since late last year, and told her so:
Dave W wrote:Can I take the opportunity to thank all involved with the interim blanket CoAA process for the proactive and helpful way it has been managed from the outset? I understand from many others at airfields around the UK that they feel the same.

Reply:
Home Office wrote:Finally, thank you for feedback on the CoA process, I have passed your thanks on to the teams involved, it’s always nice to hear about a job well done, so thank you for taking the time to let us know.
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User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1887723
OK...

HMRC have now responded via my Home Office contact. However, the response doesn't hit the spot for me and I am developing a number of follow-on questions so have sent a holding response to that effect.

What they have said is:

Home Office/HMRC wrote:Colleagues in HMRC have provided a response to your questions.

In relation to your first question around the terminology being used, in particular “outward clearance” and whether that now means permission is required:

    Outward clearance is required for flights from GB to the EU. The primary legislation, the Customs & Excise Management Act 1979 (CEMA) has not changed. CEMA sets out the law and the revised Commissioners’ Directions, supplemented with Guidance on Gov.UK, set out the form and manner for how the law is to be met.

    The legislation can be found here.

You also asked about the reporting requirements.

    The time limits for reporting are as follows:

    Aircraft:

    (a) in the case of arrivals: no later than two hours before departure of the aircraft to GB or NI

    (b) in the case of departures: no later than two hours before departure of the aircraft from GB or NI

    You asked if it was correct that the reporting period is 2 hours (from EU outbound airfields) before departure for a flight inbound to GB, HMRC have confirmed that is correct.

    You also queried the ‘inbound reporting table’ and the fact that whilst the table referred to requirements being ‘unchanged’ there were actually changes to the reporting timings. These tables set out the need to report journeys, which itself has not changed. The Existing General Aviation Report guidance can be accessed here and the existing Commissioners’ Directions can be accessed here

    In terms of the changes, the revised time limits bring clarity and consistency over what was in place previously. There is no longer ambiguity relating to the duration of the flight and it will enable efficient processing and risk assessment of the reports submitted.

I hope the responses above answer your questions.


Well, they don't, really.

There certainly are changes, despite the claim that there are not, and so I shall be responding accordingly once I get a few moments to construct a careful and detailed response.

I'll be asking, for example:
  • What is "clearance" actually intended to mean, in practice? Is it, as I asked in my original question, that "permission" is required? (Previously it hadn't been - in practice - as the GAR process and Designated/Certificate of Agreement Airfield construct apparently met the requirements of the Customs & Excise Management Act 1979, as described inthe GAR Guidance material.)
  • On what basis has the change been made from notification period referenced to arrival in the UK to (now) notification referenced to departure from the foreign country? There's no explanation and so what is the justification for that? It is quite an imposition, so a justification should be available.
  • The change is in fact at variance to the link they provide to the Commisisoners' Directions, specifically para.3(1)(c)(ii) which clearly states: "Coming from within the EU: at least 4 hours before arrival". (My bold)
  • I will likely challenge their statement starting "...the revised time limits bring clarity and consistency over what was in place previously..." with examples as to why I believe that is not so.

Any thoughts from the assembled company?
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User avatar
By Kemble Pitts
#1887872
Hi Dave

Having , up to now, been in dialogue with more or less rational people, it seems you've now 'hooked' a pompous 'don't you dare challenge our official declarations' idiot.

They clearly cannot even consider the idea that what has been promulgated could be wrong, ambiguous, or, heaven forbid, contradict the Regulations that they told you to read to prove what they say. Obviously they've not read them themselves.

As ever, grateful for your continuing efforts whilst admiring your masochism.
Dave W, FrankS liked this
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1887874
HMRC hasn't really changed since the 18th century :D
User avatar
By G-BLEW
Boss Man  Boss Man
#1887879
Dave W wrote:Ah, they get the benefit of the doubt for now.

My draft response seems fairly strong to me (but I would think that, wouldn't I? ;))


I don't think your questions are too strong at all. Very reasonable I would say.

Ian
kanga, johnm, A le Ron liked this
User avatar
By bogopper
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1887881
Hi Dave

I think you may need to be a bit more on the nose with the questions & comments. The reply reads as if they have not read the exam question!

E.g.
- what form will pilots be informed of ‘outbound clearance’
- what will the reasonable time frame be to receive clearance, especially on a Sunday morning when only 2 hours notice is required to depart?

I think some examples of the notice time BF will receive would help too. An RV from Calais to Headcorn is gonna be 2:30hr but to Leicester 3:30hr. I doubt BF will be able to deal with this so I’m not sure if we should point it out or not!

The subsequent question is how long we wait for BF?

Maybe teaching to suck eggs is the right approach?

Hth

Mark
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1887883
@G-BLEW :D

By "strong" I actually meant "convincing" rather than "Listen up, bucko..." ;)

@bogopper, in this environment (sadly one I paddle in too often for anybody's good) it seems likely more to reach an acceptable solution by speaking the same language and asking them to think about what they are saying.

One of the things I am (re-)asking is how they define "clearance" (CEMA 1979) given they say "nothing has changed" and there's no explicit permission required today.

You are in effect "cleared" once you notify appropriately, leave from an approved airfield and aren't then challenged within the notice period. That should be the same from January, I say in my draft.

The risk of asking a question in the wrong way is that they dig in their bureaucratic heels and compound what I reckon are their existing errors.

As for "how long do you wait?" - so far as I'm concerned that question already has a clear answer just as it does today ("until after your GAR ETA has elapsed") hence there's no incentive even to ask the question.
johnm liked this
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1887887
I have always set times earlier than I plan since if anyone is going to be hanging around it isn’t going to be me :twisted:
Lefty liked this
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