Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Martin.g
#1885453
Now that we are no longer in the EU and customs now required inbound, I can't see why flights inbound from the CTA should be treated any differently to the rest of the EU? 12 Hrs is a serious errosion to safety especially as you have no facility on the GAR to delay or bring forward for weather reasons, without having to give another 12hrs notice.
By Ibra
#1885460
johnm wrote:There’s no logic to this that I can see. We used to need immigration notification on return because we weren’t in Schengen. Now we need customs too because we are no longer in the single market. Why we would need to notify outbound is a mystery known only to Border Farce.


The outbound notification is puzzling but there could be a logic to it: while ago I recall after landing and getting welcomed by “next time send us an outbound GAR on Friday if flying with non-UK/EU citizens” which I duly did (nothing in GAR guidance about this) then that suddenly reduced the number of face to face meetings on my weekends (they may call/email for my pax details), so my naive guess, maybe it helps reducing hassle on the return leg?

Obviously, outbound notification is unnecessary if pob are CTA citizens & aircraft is cleared by HRMC to circulate in UK? I would be curious to know what the notification achieves on this scenario?
User avatar
By A le Ron
#1885461
It would be interesting to see whether any actual legislation underpins this new set of “rules”.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885480
It was and is bureaucracy and politics that caused all this, the IRA was an excuse for some of it.
User avatar
By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885484
johnm wrote:It was and is bureaucracy and politics that caused all this


How so? Surely there's no bureaucracy and politics which would cause the Special Branch notification/12 hour to/from Ireland/IoM/Channel Islands thing in itself?
By Ibra
#1885486
I had the impression within some parts of CTA, I think it’s more about taxes rather than Police/IRA/ISIS?
I am sure HMRC is better off loading FR24 database files than printing GAR :D
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885492
The core was and is the Common Travel Area where we recognise that something like Schengen applies in respect of free movement of humans but the Irish problem introduced requirements for notification. Customs always applied to the CI and now apply to Ireland. IoM is slightly different.

EU always had immigration issues and now has customs issues as well.

Clear?? :D
User avatar
By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885514
PeteSpencer wrote:Has anybody who has had a Border Force inspection for the granting of a Certificate of Agreement heard anything yet.?
Our inspection was in May and we haven' heard a dickey-bird.


Well, to answer my own question, coincidentally I have today received an E mail from Border Force General Aviation Division to say the 'period of grace' has been extended from July next year to December 2023.

No further action required for C o A applications in the pipeline, who will receive their C o A in time for Jan 2024.

Poor dears, prolly snowed under. :roll:

But good news .
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885526
The following email just sent to Border Force GA Unit. I shall report back with any response:

Dave W wrote:Good afternoon,

I wonder if you can clarify some points regarding the changes that I understand will arise to General Aviation departures and arrivals from/to Great Britain as well as General Aviation Report (GAR) submissions from 1 January 2022?

I have a number of questions based on the HMRC document "New Customs Reporting Requirements for General Aviation (GA) moving from/to Great Britain" (PDF) which I have obtained via the AOPA UK website.

The questions/clarification requests are:

  1. The terminology used for departure from GB to the EU is now "Outward Clearance".
    • Given the use of the word "Clearance", can you please advise whether this is intended to mean that permission is now effectively required for an Outbound flight?
    • If that is now the case, I would be grateful if you would advise a reference to the detailed legislation that requires permission rather than (as was previously the case for non-EU destinations) a notification.
  2. The document states: "There will also be a reduction to the current time limits for reporting of aircraft to Border Force for customs purposes to at least two hours before departure from GB or at least two hours before departure from the last destination before the aircraft arrives in GB" (My bold)
    • The change from 4 hours notification to 2 hours for a return flight is to be welcomed. However the start point for that notification is now different and I suspect may be an error as written.
    • Is it correct that the reporting period is 2 hours before departure (from EU outbound airfield) for a flight inbound to GB?
    • This is a significant change to the current requirement for notification 4 hours before arrival in GB. It would effectively be an increase, not a decrease, in notification period for most journeys and on the face of it is illogical.
    • It is also inconsistent with the "Inward Reporting" Table on page 1 of the document which states "EU Member Countries to GB Reporting Still Required (Unchanged); Rest of the world to GB Reporting Still Required (Unchanged); Channel Islands to GB Reporting Still Required (Unchanged)" (my bold) - obviously this is a change, and a significant one (from time before arrival to time before departure)
    • Surely time of flight is irrelevant? Yet departing from (say) the South of France will demand the pilot notifies Border Force many hours before a flight from (say) the French Channel coast, even if both arrive in the UK at the same time.
    • I would like to request that you confirm the intent of this change, and if it is not an error then please advise the justification for the change.
  3. The document states (on page 2): "If you are travelling between GB and another country within the Common Travel Area (NI, Ireland, the Channel Islands or the Isle of Man) and are using a port that is not police designated, you must still notify police at least 12 hours in advance of your journey. Failure to seek approval is a criminal offence under the Terrorism Act 2000." (My bold).
    • Please confirm the requirement for "Approval".
    • The Terrorism Act 2000 does not state that approval is required or that it is a criminal offence not to receive it. ("Notification", certainly: "Approval", no).
    • The Terrorism Act 2000 Schedule 7 Paragraph 12 says:
      " 3)Where an aircraft is employed on a journey to which this paragraph applies otherwise than to carry passengers for reward, the captain of the aircraft shall not permit it to call at or leave a port in Great Britain or Northern Ireland unless—
      (a)the port is a designated port, or
      (b)he gives at least 12 hours’ notice in writing to a constable for the police area in which the port is situated (or, where the port is in Northern Ireland, to a member of the Royal Ulster Constabulary)." (My bold)
  4. On page 2 of the document it states: "Non-customs and excise designated aerodromes that handle GA permitted international flights are now covered by a blanket interim Certificate of Agreement (CoA) until 31 December 2023." (My bold)
    • This date (31 Dec 2023) is a welcome change from the date of 30 June 2022 that was previously notified (such as in the letter sent to airfields on 14 October 2020, inviting applications for a Certificate of Agreement (a copy of which is attached).
    • Has this change in date been previously notified? I ask because I am involved in the application for a Certificate of Agreement and I don't believe we have received anything since we submitted the application some months ago.

In summary, the document "New Customs Reporting Requirements for General Aviation (GA) moving from/to Great Britain" does, on the face of it, appear to contain some errors, inconsistencies and illogicalities.

This email requests that you review the content of that document and any supporting material in line with the detail above.

Given that the rule changes come into force in 1 month's time from tomorrow, I'd be grateful if you could prioritise such a review.

Finally: I notice that there is a companion HMRC document "Changes to Reporting Requirements for General Aviation (GA) moving from/to Northern Ireland" for which a number of the comments above also apply. I have not yet fully reviewed that and may have some further questions in due course

Many thanks, and I look forward to your response. Please let me know if I can clarify further anything that I have written.

Best Regards,


Question 4 will no doubt be answered when we receive the same email Pete got today!

Edit: Well, I did get a rapid initial response, telling me the queries should go to the Home Office and not the Border Force GA Unit. So now sent to them as advised.

Edit2: Home Office have now (0900 1 Dec) forwarded the queries to a section in HMRC.
G-BLEW, Ibra, imperialsam and 3 others liked this
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