Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1883650
So what is the end of this? we started with mandatory PPR to check conditions before visiting private strips and now it sounds like the best is “site trainings & checks every 6 months”? “strip rating” on PPL? “min 100h PIC”? something like Courcheval training ou Mountain rating, with 6months currency would be ideal then we get everybody checked through that?

Just a note even “private altiports” in 5kft elevations don’t even require “mountain grass strips training”, only licensed airports do, all it takes is PPR call for permission and acknowledged you are doing it at your own risk !

Grass stripping in UK is by far one of the most rewarding flying experiences, there are various ways to learn like getting in touch with STOL pilots, microlights instructors, LAA CRIs…or just going slowly on own pace building on what has been done in PPL course and own ticket to learn

The discussion here reminds me of similar discussions on visiting gliding or microlight sites with power aircraft, there are obvious briefings on “acoustics & obstacles” with some runway length considerations but it’s not rocket science neither, comes with obvious risks but let’s not make a whole dinner out of it

The accident that started this discussion was just “waiting to happen”? I doubt “mandatory PPR” or “grass strip rating” would have prevent it, sadly, only natural selection seems to work….
#1883653
lobstaboy wrote:You can practice short field technique using a couple of traffic cones beside the runway to give yourself whatever distance you want to touch down and stop between. (It's also a good way of stopping yourself judging the circuit by ground features - if you can displace the threshold a few hundred yards).
But then flying into a farm strip of the same length as you just practiced is something else again...



Couldn't agree more, its all well and good marking out an area on a big runway to practice your short field technique but this in no way prepares you for your first real short field landing on a relatively short strip.

So when you are starting to master the technique I would then recommend finding a grass airstrip around 500m that allows visitors, practice there until you can take-off and land comfortably in half that distance using only one half of the runway and be able to place the aircraft exactly were you want it 90% of the time, aircraft limitations permitting, but you get the idea.

This is how I prepared myself to start landing at my home strip which is 250m with one way for landing and one way for take-off and a large hedge at one end, even with lots of practice at 500m strips it felt very short the first time.

I would add that most farm strips you will need a STOL type aircraft.

In essence don't try run before you can walk.
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#1883654
Rob L wrote:
PA28 wrote:The important thing to remember about farm strips is when the wind is calm you could have traffic landing in the opposite direction. The use of the SafetyComm frequency 135.480 or the strip's own frequency if it has one helps build up the situational awareness.
Usually radios are unmanned and traffic makes 'blind' calls.
PPR is essential by phone because there could be sheep grazing the strip or soft ground conditions etc.
Most strips have narrow runways so it is important not to drift sideways into the crop.
Strip flying can be great fun and no high viz jackets required.


PA28: If calm winds are "The important thing" then please do not ask to fly into my private strip.

@Rob L

In fairness to PA28, he actually said that the important thing is the opposite direction traffic, not calm winds.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883658
Ibra wrote:So what is the end of this? we started with mandatory PPR to check conditions before visiting private strips and now it sounds like the best is “site trainings & checks every 6 months”? “strip rating” on PPL? “min 100h PIC”? something like Courcheval training ou Mountain rating, with 6months currency would be ideal then we get everybody checked through that?

….


All that ^^^^ might be a bit over the top (but very lucrative for instructors :wink: ) .
When we sell a share in our Arrow we ask an instructor known to us and familiar with the strip/aeroplane not only to check proposed member out on the Arrow (and do differences training if required), but also to spend some time on 'strip familiarisation' at the strip to highlight its quirks...... :thumleft:
#1883671
PeteSpencer wrote:
Ibra wrote:So what is the end of this? we started with mandatory PPR to check conditions before visiting private strips and now it sounds like the best is “site trainings & checks every 6 months”? “strip rating” on PPL? “min 100h PIC”? something like Courcheval training ou Mountain rating, with 6months currency would be ideal then we get everybody checked through that?

….


All that ^^^^ might be a bit over the top (but very lucrative for instructors :wink: ) .
When we sell a share in our Arrow we ask an instructor known to us and familiar with the strip/aeroplane not only to check proposed member out on the Arrow (and do differences training if required), but also to spend some time on 'strip familiarisation' at the strip to highlight its quirks...... :thumleft:



Yes for based pilots, most of the learning gets covered in tailwheel/complex/variant conversion or type familiarisation where people get to know aircraft and the place around (also applies to long pavements with complex airspace nearby)

For visitors, I would not make “site checks” out of it, just call for permission and check the conditions, actually, some strips can’t take 2pob visitors unless they have good insurance and they wear helmets :lol: but 1pob is usually ok in good hands…
Last edited by Ibra on Sat Nov 20, 2021 12:01 pm, edited 4 times in total.
#1883678
Ibra wrote:Having said that I flew to Pittsford few times, it’s in the 400m and no PPR, maybe 1 ou of 3 airfield without PPR in the country? (the others two are Sandown & Fenland), I have landed there in Cub, Faulke, C172 (I called), last was 3pob with good winds, always to do some water sports or just rent and cycle around the reservoir, still lovely to talk to the chap who owns it…

Popham doesn't need PPR either!
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883682
malcolmfrost wrote:
Ibra wrote:Having said that I flew to Pittsford few times, it’s in the 400m and no PPR, maybe 1 ou of 3 airfield without PPR in the country? (the others two are Sandown & Fenland), I have landed there in Cub, Faulke, C172 (I called), last was 3pob with good winds, always to do some water sports or just rent and cycle around the reservoir, still lovely to talk to the chap who owns it…

Popham doesn't need PPR either!

Although watching the comedic attempts by some to negotiate the 26 dogleg, perhaps it should. :twisted:

JK.... of course it shouldn't.
#1883685
I also think there is a lot of Willy waving in the strip flying community except unlike actual Willy waving the goal is to have the shortest Willy and the tightest trousers, to use a metaphor.

Just to put the record straight, because it seems you mention one thing and all of a sudden 320m grass is not hard enough in a 152. We do teach restricted approaches, short field maximum angle of climb take offs and how to control the aircraft at slow speeds in the climb. We also teach how to abandon the takeoff if it isn’t going to plan.
If you think we don’t bother to tell students about parking in tight spaces, taxiing on soft ground or starting an engine while backing onto an open hangar door then I don’t know where you learned. This is every day bread and butter.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883691
TLRippon wrote:Just to put the record straight, because it seems you mention one thing and all of a sudden 320m grass is not hard enough in a 152. We do teach restricted approaches, short field maximum angle of climb take offs and how to control the aircraft at slow speeds in the climb. We also teach how to abandon the takeoff if it isn’t going to plan.
If you think we don’t bother to tell students about parking in tight spaces, taxiing on soft ground or starting an engine while backing onto an open hangar door then I don’t know where you learned. This is every day bread and butter.

Er, has anyone said any of those things? Or that you don't teach the things you say you teach?
By mpk
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883700
Can't see how it's possible to define a strip versus an airfield, or for that matter what defines an aircraft as 'not stol'. The majority seem to think a PA28 and AA5 are 'not stol', and that anything under X metres means 'stol only' so the accident in question meant a C150 needs over 500m. I prefer to do the calculations and make the decision mainly based on aircraft weight (minimum fuel, pax), that the grass is not too soft, and preferably some headwind.

Which is why I have been happy to: do circuits in a AA5 at Stoke Golding (525m), same AA5 (2 on board) into Holmbeck Fm (500m), land a PA28 on Shotteswell's cross runway (300m), C150 out of a 450m grass runway (2 on board). So I don't think it's a simple 'never take a (insert type) into there'.
#1883707
TLRippon wrote:I also think there is a lot of Willy waving in the strip flying community .....


not at all, "we" just don't want the hassle of dragging some clowns wreckage off our runways, it's a waste of tractor diesel and tends to create paperwork!
Last edited by Sooty25 on Sat Nov 20, 2021 7:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Ridders
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1883712
flyingearly wrote:I learnt at Deanland; it's 400m, has a bit of a lump on it, but having done 95% of my training there that's my baseline: most other places I now fly seem so much easier in comparison! But, I'm assuming no-one would consider that a 'strip'; it's smooth, well maintained, no rabbit holes, not owned by a farmer, no sheep on the runway etc.

Well it’s a little longer than 400m. With the displaced thresholds, it’s 457m (not including the over run) unless your referring to the winter runway.
Certainly it’s smooth and very well maintained, but do not believe that there are ever ‘no sheep’ and no gotchers :wink:

I have had to chase a small flock of 7 sheep off the runway to allow aircraft to land. Somewhat hilarious at the time, It was interesting locating the owner and helping them back up the lane to where they came from with the incentive of a bag of feed.

I’ve also had pheasants sitting on side of runway walk out in front of me when landing many times, (gits!) as well as geese!

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In the summer there can be cracks that form in the ground when the airfield dries out - they can open up quite wide.

And of course, In the winter, it can be very soft in places, and the airfield is closed, for good reason.

Here’s an example of a unwanted landing, with no PPR obtained, when the airfield was closed, a few years ago.

This inconsiderate pilot ruined it for the residents, for several years afterwards the areas where the aircraft had taxied were extra soft. How they didn’t flip over was amazing, he got stuck several times taxing about.
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Several of us spent quite some hours treading this all down to attempt to minimise the immediate damage, after it happened. Incredibly He has taxied his RV right through the softer areas, it could have been worse….
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