[PeteSpencer]

I honestly don't know what there is to discuss here in terms of pfl. What on earth is the point of PFLing into an airfield?!! Cos of course the engine will only quit when in gliding range of 800m of tarmac right? In fact I wonder now what is the point of glide approaches from downwind in the syllabus..........

Since we can fly down to zero feet then they should be practiced into 'real' fields down to 2-300ft until perfected.

You're right , of course:

But in E Anglia there are at least four WW2 airfields in sight from 3000ft, and countless grass strips

My goal is not so much to achieve the perfect pfl, but not to upset joe public by flying too low:

I don't for example slam the C/S prop into fully fine at 800ft in our circuit.

IMHO all this pfl discussion would be better off in the other 'strip flying' thread...............................................

[Sooty25]

@Rex123

thank you for contributing to this thread, you've probably gathered that the contributors have actually drifted right off track and are now discussing something different. This tends to be a tough and critical crowd at the best of times, so don't let them spoil your memory.

Whatever you want to call it, "catalogue of errors" or "holes in the cheese lining up", most pilots probably have one or two flights in their memory bank like that. I have, but as they say "I learned about flying from that". In this case, your associate didn't get that chance.

We didn't all hit on the cocaine issue. The legality of the substance is in my view some elses issue and that seems to be the AAIB stance as well. It had no effect. I've witnessed one chap nearly write off a chipmunk because he was under the influence of alcohol, and I've stopped another pilot flying because he'd just had half a bottle of wine. Their substance however was legal.

I'm sorry you lost a friend, it was unfortunately what we describe as "pilot error", nothing will undo that, nor bring him back, but lots will learn from his "catalogue of errors".

Maybe @Administrators could split this thread and shift the PFL/EFATO into a separate thread, and let this thread remain about it title.

[lobstaboy]

I've known the pilot a very long time.

I was impressed how thorough the AAIB report was, although I know for a fact that he had flown significantly more than 2 hours between his test and the crash. ...


I hope that one consolation I can take from his loss is that other pilots will learn from the mistakes he made (and there were many that day, obviously)....


...it feels like you should be saying: This pilot could have been having a bad day; everyone can have a bad day; what should I do when I'm having a bad day and flying? Feels like that is a more useful learning opportunity.

To those that have said that he was obviously a cocaine addict and that's why he died, I have no words....

Hello Rex123. Thank you for your post. I'm sorry about the loss of your friend.

I want to say a few things that I hope will reassure you and help you to understand the thinking and sentiment behind the discussion on this thread (I've quoted above the things you said that I particularly want to refer to).

First off let me say that all flyers are greatly saddened when someone has an accident doing the thing we all love. There but for the grace of God etc...

The AAIB has a reputation for being very thorough and balanced. It does not apportion blame and looks to find out what happened so that others can learn. You mention this, correctly. The discussion here has been about the posters interpretation of the report and what lessons they can learn.

But...
- the hours a pilot flies are recorded in their log book (which is a legal requirement) That's where the AAIB will have got n umbers from. It should have been up to date.
- you don't have an off day when you're flying. You don't fly. End of. This is so fundamental to our training and culture.
- I don't see anyone making the claim you mention about drug addiction.

Again, thank you for posting.

(Edit to add that I wrote this without reading what @Sooty25 said above - I think our sentiments are broadly in line

[Sooty25]

(Edit to add that I wrote this without reading what @Sooty25 said above - I think our sentiments are broadly in line

Yes.

[skydriller]

the hours a pilot flies are recorded in their log book (which is a legal requirement) That's where the AAIB will have got n umbers from. It should have been up to date.

Is it a legal requirement? I was under the impression that a pilot logbook was only required to show flights needed for the application of a licence or rating and record flight training with instructor signature...

[lobstaboy]

the hours a pilot flies are recorded in their log book (which is a legal requirement) That's where the AAIB will have got n umbers from. It should have been up to date.

Is it a legal requirement? I was under the impression that a pilot logbook was only required to show flights needed for the application of a licence or rating and record flight training with instructor signature...

FCL 050 says "all flights must be logged". I've always taken that to mean what it appears to mean...

[PeteSpencer]

@Rex123

I echo @Sooty25 's comments:
The problem about forums in general and this one in particular is that very many posters hide for various, mostly valid reasons behind the cloak of anonymity .

It is therefore exceedingly difficult on occasions for newcomers to know whose opinions are valued and whose are combative tripe.

Indeed even those who have been here donkey's years and are happy to post under their own names even now don't know the occupations and therefore validity of comments of most people on here:

Covid hasn't helped the social Forumite intermingling of yesteryear and formation of lasting, trusting friendships.

I regret very much the loss of your friend and hope that you will take away that feeling that most on here feel, even though, on that particular day, for whatever the reason, his errors cost him his life.

Peter

[proteus]

Rex123.

That's interesting that you are sure he'd flown a lot more post skills test. It seems a bit odd to me that the AAIB wouldn't have picked this up and made a comment about it. Wouldn't there be a tech log of some sort as it was on the G reg which should show the flights?

[Genghis the Engineer]

If he wasn't putting flights in his personal logbook, and was sole owner of the aeroplane, it seems entirely plausible that he wasn't putting flights into the tech log either.

G

[proteus]

Would this not have been easy for the AAIB to check?

I'm not up to speed on G reg stuff.

[Lockhaven]

If he wasn't putting flights in his personal logbook, and was sole owner of the aeroplane, it seems entirely plausible that he wasn't putting flights into the tech log either.

G

Maybe so, however the last time I entered hours in my logbook (2 years ago) it was passing 13000 hours, but I still keep my aircraft records exactly up to date, after a while logbook hours become irrelevant.

[Rex123]

Thanks for the comments. I really don't want to come across as combative, that is absolutely not my intention. I'm on enough forums for other hobbies that I know there is always a great variety of personalities

Regarding the logs - I know he did flight planning/logging on a phone app. It may be that he didn't regularly transfer those logs on to paper, and I know there was some difficulty getting into his phone after the accident, so it may be they never managed it. Although, as you say, I'm a little surprised they didn't mention that in the report.

I completely acknowledge that his own errors cost his life, most especially the shoulder belts. I honestly don't know why he didn't like wearing them; I suspect he thought they restricted movement as someone mentioned, but yes, obviously a fatal mistake in this case.

My hope in posting is that a) I could speak to his character, because only someone that actually knew him in real life rather than from the pages of the report could do that and b) that in defending his character I'd ideally like that the lessons are acknowledged by all pilots here, not just by those who don't come to the conclusion that he was a terminal screw-up, because he wasn't.

I also ask for a little sensitivity - his wife and kids are all computer-savvy and may well stumble across this forum at some point. I was watching for media/internet activity when the report was released and it didn't take much difficulty to find this thread when it was still on page 1. But I absolutely wouldn't want anyone to censor legitimate discussion of the hows and whys and I'm sure neither would they.

[johnm]

It seems inappropriate to “like” your comment but nonetheless I agree with your sentiments.

Most pilots read AAIB reports for the lessons and much of the discussion has an element of “if only” behind it rather than criticizing those involved

[proteus]

Thanks for replying Rex,

The personal logbooks I understand (I'm old fashioned and still write them up into my paper logbook) but many of my friends use purely digital logbooks, I do understand once you've got a pretty decent number of hours and are flying regularly it's not hugely important to log ( I don't think there is an faa requirement to log all flights) . I did think that on G reg a physical flight tech log needs to be kept.

I do find the AAIB reports to be interesting reading and think they're an excellent resource to learn from. This one does seem to show a pattern from the pilot, which perhaps indicated that something was going to happen sooner or later. Saying that any one of a number of small changes and this accident wouldn't have happened.

That being said it could have been worse, if he had ignored the instruction to take off solo there could be orphaned kids which would have been even more brutal.

There is one thing I really don't understand though, and that is going into soft grass strips with wheel skirts on.

[Sooty25]

There is one thing I really don't understand though, and that is going into soft grass strips with wheel skirts on.

But, if nobody had warned you, and this was your first landing in mud, you might not have thought about it.