Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By proteus
#1884240
My point was about wheel coverings and their suitability for soft ground.

His aircraft was capable of flying in and out of the strip he went to. Many things he did though didn't help him.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1884245
proteus wrote:My point was about wheel coverings and their suitability for soft ground.

His aircraft was capable of flying in and out of the strip he went to. Many things he did though didn't help him.


Indeed.

He brought the wrong attitude.
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By Mz Hedy
#1884256
The first draft of this was quite a long post - I've trimmed it to the bare bones. My apologies if it reads as curt and unfeeling. That is not the intent - I feel deep sorrow for the pilot's family and friends.
Rex123 wrote:[...]To those that have said that he was obviously a cocaine addict and that's why he died, I have no words. There is no evidence for that opinion in the report, and why that should be your takeaway from it I have no idea. I'm not going to try to deny he ever took it, but it's frankly an objectively stupid thing to assert when the report explicitly said it would not have affected his actions.
[...]

I suspect it might be my post earlier that you are referring to. I can understand your reaction to it. I did write that cocaine is highly addictive and formed the opinion that the pilot "was possibly addicted or on the road to addiction", but I didn't write (nor did anyone else that I've read) that he was "obviously a cocaine addict". I also wrote that the AAIB's toxicologist say that the levels detected would not directly have affected his behaviour on the day, and I stressed the "directly", leaving open the possibility of indirect effects.

Those on here who know me personally will be aware that I have had occasion to observe the ruinous effects that (initially) recreational drug use can (stress can) have on lives. That doubtless coloured my response.
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1884258
What's the issue with spats? I can imagine that if the grass is long enough to impede them it could be an issue, and of course there's the potential for them to fill up with mud and grass.

However, I've flown my AA5A for 30 years with spats on, mostly from grass. Whenever there's mud on the tailplane (almost always this time of year), and from time to time at other times, I check them, there's never anything in them.

Am I missing something?
By proteus
#1884261
Top Cat,
I think in the AAIB report it mentions that one side was full with mud and unable for the wheel to be rotated (this could be from it drying and hardening though)
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1884262
proteus wrote:Top Cat,
I think in the AAIB report it mentions that one side was full with mud and unable for the wheel to be rotated (this could be from it drying and hardening though)

From the report:

The nose landing gear was severely displaced and had bent rearwards, and its wheel fairing
had detached. The main wheels and fairings were intact but were heavily contaminated
with mud (Figure 3).


and

Of note, the right main wheel brake appeared to be binding whilst the left mainwheel was
free to rotate.


Is that the bit you mean?

It's not obvious to me that mud in the spat was preventing one of the wheels from rotating - and I doubt he'd have got off the ground at all had that been the case.
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By proteus
#1884264
Yes, that's what I was thinking of, I had assumed the binding of the brake was linked to the wheel contamination. I'm not convinced it would have prevented him taking off it filled up during the take off roll, and from the ruts I saw it could well have been the case.

When landing on wet grass I've often locked up wheels on braking and noted minimal difference in slowing me down.

I was discussing this with some flying pals, and the question was raised if the left drift could have come from him having a lot of left rudder in just before take off to counter the drag from the right wheel. Total speculation but just something to think about.
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By flyingearly
#1884269
proteus wrote:I was discussing this with some flying pals, and the question was raised if the left drift could have come from him having a lot of left rudder in just before take off to counter the drag from the right wheel. Total speculation but just something to think about.


Wasn't that one of the specific conclusions of the AAIB report?

"The left yaw was probably a result of the pilot not reducing the left rudder input that would have been required during the ground roll to overcome the effect of the right brake binding while rolling over the muddy runway surface"
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By ozplane
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885095
I think I might have been one of the few pilots to have ground-looped a Cherokee 140. This happened on landing at Nairobi Wilson airport, when the short runway was part tarmac, part murram (lateritic gravel). I arrived a bit too quickly and braked hard just as I ran on to the wet gravel and performed a very neat 180 to face the oncoming fire crew who had been very quick off the mark. All as a result of the mud mixture in the port spat.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885516
lobstaboy wrote:You do not need to speculate about what would be the right thing to do in that situation because you are going to make sure you never get anywhere near being in that situation.


I disagree. People may find themselves in the position where they take off with the trim set incorrectly, perhaps due to carelessness, inattention or distraction in checks. This is one of the take-aways - or perhaps two - don't take off with the trim set incorrectly but if you do, recognise it and know how to handle it.

StratoTramp wrote:Number 5. "deplane" :shock:




leiafee wrote:Human interaction and pressure on the spot though clearly is more of one - that strip owner almost certainly saved that passenger’s life by being what was undoubtedly seen as bolshy at the time.


Not necessarily. I don't think it's as clear cut as that. Maybe if he hadn't had people interfering with his decisions on the day, he'd have run through his checks properly and backtracked to get more runway with his wife on board. We don't know if he skipped the checks because he didn't want to stop and sink into the ground or whether he was annoyed and just wanted to go, or if he just plain forgot.

If the ground is a bit boggy, I'll sometimes do my run-up at the parking area assuming nothing's behind me. I'll then do my pre-take-off checks before taxying to the runway, so I'm ready to go. This isn't just for boggy ground, I do it when backtracks or immediates may be required, anywhere where it's possible to be in a situation where the checks may get skipped.

Rex123 wrote:I completely acknowledge that his own errors cost his life, most especially the shoulder belts. I honestly don't know why he didn't like wearing them; I suspect he thought they restricted movement as someone mentioned, but yes, obviously a fatal mistake in this case.


Did he wear them when he took you flying? Did he insist you wear yours? It's quite a fundamental thing in a very unforgiving environment.

proteus wrote:That's interesting that you are sure he'd flown a lot more post skills test.


There may be many hours post test and pre-licence, given the time taken to issue licences.

Rex123 wrote:My hope in posting is that a) I could speak to his character, because only someone that actually knew him in real life rather than from the pages of the report could do that and b) that in defending his character I'd ideally like that the lessons are acknowledged by all pilots here, not just by those who don't come to the conclusion that he was a terminal screw-up, because he wasn't.


There's a lot of depth to this.

As you probably know, the vast majority of aircraft accidents are caused by humans. We read accident report and discuss them on here so that everyone may learn what the common causes are and to try and avoid them. Many accidents are caused by poor decision making, and others by poor handling, and some by a combination of both where you may have heard of the Swiss Cheese model, with the holes in the slices of cheese lining up.

Part of the decision making process can be focused on the pilot's personality. This isn't just to say "he was a reckless idiot, I'd never do anything so stupid" but to also recognise traits which people may find themselves, for whatever reason, applies to them - maybe not every day but from time to time. These may include over-confidence, carelessness, inattention, skipping vital checks, choice of runway, all sorts of things.

It's fair to say that this report does include quite a lot of these points all in one. It reinforces to people who are perhaps a little over-confident that **** happens, and when it does, it can be very quick and very unforgiving, and as a low time pilot you may not have the skills to sort it out as quickly as it happens.

One aspect of discussing these is peer pressure. By people using the language as used in some posts in this thread, hopefully it'll discourage someone from participating in some risky activities, not just because it may be dangerous, but because we'll talk about it on here. If it encourages people to be a bit more methodical, if it encourages people to think twice about doing something they think they can do, but others think may be a step too far then that's got to be good.

That's not to say that some people can't be over-cautious or too risk averse, but hopefully there will be a balance to strike.
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By lobstaboy
#1885538
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:You do not need to speculate about what would be the right thing to do in that situation because you are going to make sure you never get anywhere near being in that situation.


I disagree. People may find themselves in the position where they take off with the trim set incorrectly, perhaps due to carelessness, inattention or distraction in checks. This is one of the take-aways - or perhaps two - don't take off with the trim set incorrectly but if you do, recognise it and know how to handle it.



Paul you're quoting me out of context. I was trying forceably to make a point to a low hours pilot in a way that I felt was helpful given the specific question he'd asked - which wasn't what should I do if I take off with the trim set incorrectly.
The take away I was trying to emphasize was never let yourself get in the situation this pilot did. I mean emotional and mental. It was all wrong long before the trim was set incorrectly (if it was).
By Hooligan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885548
ozplane wrote:I think I might have been one of the few pilots to have ground-looped a Cherokee 140. This happened on landing at Nairobi Wilson airport, when the short runway was part tarmac, part murram (lateritic gravel). I arrived a bit too quickly and braked hard just as I ran on to the wet gravel and performed a very neat 180 to face the oncoming fire crew who had been very quick off the mark. All as a result of the mud mixture in the port spat.

Ozplane, I do hope that wasn't 'GK, which for some reason was my favourite Cherokee at the Aero Club of East Africa - did several trips in her to nearby game reserve air strips with the old man.
By ozplane
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885552
Hooligan, a quick glance at my logbook shows it was AJI from the Wilken fleet and apart from getting muddy there wasn't any damage...phew. Funnily enough I'd been to Keekerok game park in it the previous week.
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By Bill McCarthy
#1885555
I was turning hay one day and grass built up between one tyre on the turner and the vertical arm to the axle. The friction caused the air within the tyre to expand and it went off with an almighty bang. Trash within a spat could rub against this a/c tyre causing it to heat up and expand, thereby increasing friction, without bursting it. Post accident, this tyre would cool down and shrink, leading to the wheel being reasonably free to turn again.
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