Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By Josh
#1885912
What are checklists for? To check vital actions have been performed.

They are not a “do-list” of how to prepare the aircraft. Scan/flow around the cockpit in whatever manner seems suitable then do the checklist.
TheFarmer, Danny liked this
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By MattL
#1885913
In the military we have FRCs - flight reference cards - same thing as known in civilian flying as ‘the checklist’. The FRCs are written as a list of checks but arranged as a logical ‘flow’ around the cockpit. The FRC checks are performed from memory, aided by knowing the ‘flow’.

So some people do the checks by reading them.
Some people do the checks by a flow.
Some people do the checks by remembering the list.
Some people do the checks in a list order but from memory aided by a flow.

All the same thing; it really doesn’t matter and is safe as long as stuff gets checked.
JAFO, Wide-Body, Lefty and 1 others liked this
By Bill McCarthy
#1885920
I used to be responsible for propulsion plant training on the last boat I served on. I went nuts if anyone relied on a wad of procedures in a notepad stuck in their top overalls pocket. These actions had to be firmly planted to memory somewhere between the ears. No good trying to read stuff in the dark, hydraulic oil spray mist everywhere, fire or flood. Indeed, if they relied on checklists, they were regarded as unsafe and didn’t know their stuff.
TheFarmer, Crash one, AlanC liked this
By Loco parentis
#1885923
BMcC


It's funny you should mention boats. I also sail small sail boats as well and use an outbound as well as an inbound check list. Now, I always turn off the gas and leave the seacocks shut - just by way of example. Checklists make you safer - a lot safer !
By Loco parentis
#1885926
TF
Using a checklist adds another dimension to your efficiency as a pilot. I would feel distinctly uncomfortable with someone who rattled off his/her checks without the benefit of an 'aide memoire'. But, each to his own. I'm comfortable with my particular regime.
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By MattL
#1885931
Ps one of our Harrier test pilots told me that when it got a bit heated and you ran out of time for stuff, just ‘make sure all switches are up and all levers are forward’ and you’ll generally be ok in most things including fast jets :D
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By Ibra
#1885933
If someone can’t fly safely without paper checklist in a simple single engine piston that they regularly fly then are probably unsafe when it comes to “the big scheme of things”, however, for perfect flying you need a good paper checklist to follow :thumleft:

To deal with emergencies in complex aircrafts with redundant engines & interacting systems there are no other choices than checklists, QRH/AFM/POH, however in most single engine emergencies checklists, I come across do some logical: A & B and finish with “land ASAP” :lol:

I religiously use paper checklists when swapping types, even read whole POH/AFM and write a V-speed cards, other than that when I am current, I can just fly with memory but using paper checklists from time to time as does not hurt to keep memory sharp and in check, but I am very convinced it’s not the checklist that will save me from coming down out of the sky in SEP: it’s usually lack of fuel/engine probably combined with wrong controls inputs…

At the end of the day it’s matter of “procedural” vs “logical” types & states of minds, at any point of time you need one of the two working, ideally both in sync, not having any is really bad :lol:
Last edited by Ibra on Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:55 pm, edited 8 times in total.
lobstaboy liked this
By AlanM
#1885934
Loco parentis wrote:BMcC


It's funny you should mention boats. I also sail small sail boats as well and use an outbound as well as an inbound check list. Now, I always turn off the gas and leave the seacocks shut - just by way of example. Checklists make you safer - a lot safer !


Yep, I did that too - four or five different ones to follow. Like flying, I could complete them from memory….The good thing about checklists is that when you are interrupted you can either continue or preferably start again if there is a greater disruption. (It stops you departing out of your berth with a spring line attached!!)

We have touch sensitive info screens on each workstation - all tickable pdfs. Personally I like them - but I have also flown with experienced people who don’t use them. There is definitely a good HF reason on anything complex. Each to their own.
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By Sooty25
#1885935
Rob L wrote:How many folk here use awritten checklist before getting in their car to go to the shops?....


These days, cars are designed for stupid people to use, they have to be otherwise half the population wouldn't be able to use them. Billions go into making cars idiot proof.

That money isn't available in aviation, and doesn't need to be, because pilots are usually smart enough to manage tasks that most motorists would consider impossible.
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By Flintstone
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1885976
Like most people when flying (simple) light aircraft I conduct my checks from memory, often using 'noooomonics'* as an aide-mémoire.

At work things are slightly different which should come as no surprise. There are simply too many tasks and the systems too complicated to rely upon the fallible human memory, especially mine.

There have always been memory items for 'serious' events but Bombardier has decreed that most of these should now be conducted using a quick reference card. With the exception of engine fire/failure, depressurisation, uncommanded thrust reverser deployment and a few others I see this as a good thing. Most events do not require a lightning fast response and in the heat of the moment it's oh-so easy to get it wrong.

CRM course anyone?




* I can feel the hackles rising from here. :D
AlanM, Ben K, Ibra and 2 others liked this
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By A le Ron
#1886058
When I did my MEP rating at a well-respected ATO, I was taught to use memorised flow-checks for things like engine failure, downwind and pre-landing checks, but to have check lists available for the uncommon and less urgent things, e.g. gear failure. I think this makes sense; certainly, I think it's important to understand the checks.
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By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1886059
CRM course anyone?


Had one and very good it was too :D :thumleft:
User avatar
By CloudHound
#1886063
These simple nemonic checks have stood me in good stead for nearly 50 years flying non-complex light a/c and were taught to me by ex-RAF wartime instructors.

Pre take off

T = Trim Neutral
T = Throttle Friction Nut Firm
M = Mixture Rich
M = Mags on both
F = Fuel on and sufficient for flight
F = Flaps set for Take Off
G = Guages in the Green
G= Gyro set (from compass)
H = Hatches
H= Harness

Then as lining up controls full and free plus compass agrees with runway

Downwind

B = Brakes off
U = Undercarrige down (and welded in a Cessna 150!)
M - Mixture Rich
M = Mags on both
F = Fuel on (and sufficient for go around)
F = Flaps set
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By Ben K
#1886070
CloudHound wrote:These simple nemonic checks have stood me in good stead for nearly 50 years flying non-complex light a/c and were taught to me by ex-RAF wartime instructors.

Pre take off

T = Trim Neutral
T = Throttle Friction Nut Firm
M = Mixture Rich
M = Mags on both
F = Fuel on and sufficient for flight
F = Flaps set for Take Off
G = Guages in the Green
G= Gyro set (from compass)
H = Hatches
H= Harness

Then as lining up controls full and free plus compass agrees with runway

Downwind

B = Brakes off
U = Undercarrige down (and welded in a Cessna 150!)
M - Mixture Rich
M = Mags on both
F = Fuel on (and sufficient for go around)
F = Flaps set


Doesn't the Cessna 150 have carb heat?
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