Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1884124
Yes, so it is essential we know the rules, in case we need to help others to understand them. :)

GEN 1.3.2 makes it clear that although controls vary according to whether 'passengers' are nationals of Member States or third countries nationals, border crossing conditions for people and goods at aerodromes are covered by the ministerial order of 24 October 2017: https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/eli/arre ... A/jo/texte

A Google translation of Article 5 reads
When the service responsible for border control of persons is not permanently present at the aerodrome having the quality of border crossing point, the aerodrome operator in the case of regular public transport flights or the pilot for all other flights is required to inform this service of any extra-Schengen flight by a separate notice from the flight plan, so that the formalities relating to the checks of persons can be organized before the arrival or departure of the flight, and during the periods and opening hours mentioned in the decree taken in application of article 4.
...


The 'formalities relating to the check of persons' can be carried out remotely, as they are so often for EU nationals, so in the absence of douaniers on arrival or departure, third country nationals must assume they are good to go. Otherwise, there is going to be a lot of hanging around waiting for Customs. The downside of demanding a service that cannot easily be provided is that we risk airports like Calais losing their Customs status.
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#1884193
patowalker wrote:The law requires prior notification of arrival/departure, with personal details of all POB, you send it and fly, but there is no douanier when you arrive, because Customs does not have a permanent presence at the airport. What are you going to do, demand they come and stamp your passport? Is it illegal to enter or leave France from/to a third country, without a stamp in your passport? Is the notification just a reminder to Customs to turn up to meet you, because the details you provided are worthless? It could be fun waiting at Calais in deteriorating weather for someone to turn up with a stamp, so you can fly home.


Well with my six trips the customs turned up for arrival, went away after processing and then came back half an hour before the notified departure. my passport has meticulous pairs of stamps. they think its important so do I.

On one occasion i was grateful they did arrive a bit earlier as the weather was going downhill at my destination.

But when you are the only non Schengen movements you cannot expect customs officers to hang around at your pleasure.
By Ibra
#1884204
For goods admission (including the aircraft itself) into Customs Union territory, France does not even require customs action, you are not even required to land PoE/C/I/INT airports for "temporary admission" (see GEN1.2 "Customs procedures applicable to aircraft flying unscheduted flights"), hence, missing customs when entering & exit won't imply any VAT/Duty to be paid on family underwear or aircraft as long as you don't have "to declare it": things eligible to be imported then exported under temporary admission :lol: this have even been further harmonized recently, across all EU in recent regulation, EU regulations 2020/877, basically you can skip landing in PoE/C/I/INT airports for customs if "nothing to declare" but my understanding it was only intended for intra-Shengen and extra-CU, see GEN1.3.2 (Norway, Switzerland), we do Toussus-Sion (Toussus is not PoE) but I would wait for Toussus to get immigration before trying a direct Toussus-Stapleford :lol: if you have things to declare (you want to import and sell the aircraft or underwears), you need to land in airports with customs (some PoE have police aux frontieres who have zero expertise in douanes stuff), wait for customs and do the formalities...

For people admission into Shengen territory, that is where there is a requirement to land in PoE airports for immigration, see GEN1.3, on half airports this is done by customs (DGI: douaniers) in other half this is done by (PAF: police aux frontieres), for airports without permanent customs you need to comply with Article 5 and AIP for PNR, the law text was quoted by @patowalker , I don't think there is a requirement to wait forever on the tarmac to get a stamp (but there is a requirement to stick to PNR ETA for takeoff and landing)

https://www.legifrance.gouv.fr/jorf/id/ ... 0035871810

Note that DGI does immigration in France in some PoE on behalf of PAF but they rarely care about stamps (they are not trained to access immigration systems: Shengen, Interpol, Casiers...), but they are qualified to physically check passports but they have the habit of skipping stamps or turning up if it's EU citizens, PAF in the other hand is way more into stamps and finger prints :D

As I said before missing a passport stamp on LeToquet/Calais "ce n'est pas la mer à boire", one just need to keep some travel logs and honestly there are plenty of reasons why it's worth going to France (Brits visiting can claim back VAT, will be good to get Avgas untaxed at LFAT Total pump :lol: )
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By AndyR
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1884525
Ok, so not many pilots go to Spain for the day, but you will be expected to be stamped in and stamped back out again, assuming you go landside. That from Spanish border police this morning.

I can’t comment re France as I only stopped for fuel and a comfort break so didn’t go landside.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1884706
skydriller wrote:Well guess what, Mini-Macaroon just announced that your vaxxes are only valid for 7 months and you need a 3rd dose to keep your “pass sanitaire”. And now a test is only valid for 24hrs – so basicly, you get the result and it expires…

I planned to get a booster shot after 6+months – ie end of dec/jan. But I really dislike the mandatory vaxxing by the back door that is now the “pass Sanitaire” and I have a feeling that now there will be a huge rush here and perhaps limited availability as happenned earlier in the year. Oh what fun…


As of Monday, this will apply. So because the UK was waaay ahead of France wrt vaccination, some brits may find they dont have a valid "pass sanitaire" anymore. This appears to apply to travel too.

Regards, SD..
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1884724
AndyR wrote:Ok, so not many pilots go to Spain for the day, but you will be expected to be stamped in and stamped back out again, assuming you go landside. That from Spanish border police this morning.

I can’t comment re France as I only stopped for fuel and a comfort break so didn’t go landside.


How does that work? If you are making a fuel stop and carrying on to Portugal, do you need an exit stamp from Spain? You may then want to fly from Portugal to France and leave Schengen there. I thought you needed an entry and exit stamp from Schengen, not individual Schengen countries.
By Ibra
#1884738
AndyR wrote:I can’t comment re France as I only stopped for fuel and a comfort break so didn’t go landside.


I recall "fuel tech stops" were not always possible in Jersey on the way UK/France, where you just pick 1£/L fuel and go, I did that 5 times (always sending PNR & email saying it's just for fuel), we managed to fuel and stay in my aircraft 3 times, the other 2 we had to go to terminal to get face to face talks with her majesty the finest, still aeroclub guys and air traffic in that corner were always brilliant :D

But maybe it works between UK & Spain via France?
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1884750
I didn't mean remaining airside. What is you go through Immigration, leave the airport for lunch and then proceed to Portugal? You are in Schengen, do you need to go through Immigration again to fly to another Schengen country, meaning you would have to land at a port of entry and go through the process again?
#1884764
The law says you have to clear immigration on first Shengen country of arrival (unless you are exiting Shengen again, say on big airport transits in/out of Shengen), which you did :thumleft:

However, landing and stay airside in France then going to Spain is odd? but if airport are happy with/without PNR then it's probably ok?

On tech stops, from past flights it's,
- Ok to land in Chateauroux fuel & toilette then depart and land in Cannes to clear customs (they ask to send PNR and details to cutoms on both places)
- Ok to fly Booker/Lille and stay air-side and swap crew at Lille (without PNR to France but you need GAR for UK)
- Not Ok to land in Pau for fuel & tech stop then go to Spain without PNR & 2*emails and you have to go to the terminal and wait under the sun
- Maybe Ok to land in Jersey fuel from France then go to UK without PNR & 2*GARs and maybe a walk to the terminal

I don't think there is a tech/fuel stop concession and remain air-side for GA aircraft within Shengen that would have helped for people with 2h desperate need for toilette & stretch legs :lol: also the same applies to UK on GAR even within UK, you can't land for fuel/tech stop in Stapleford to go to Oban, you have to send GAR for your first airfield of arrival (it's a condition in GAR guidance and airport CoA)