Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By BoeingBoy
#1882487
When you work for an AOC operator you are trained in commercial pressures and how to prioritise safety over pressure from the customer.


I worked for AOC holders from 1977 through to 2015 and none of them ever offered any form of training to counter the threat of commercial pressure. You either had the balls to do it yourself, or you capitulated and got on with the job.

In my time I was threatened with dismissal, continuous night duties, loss of seniority, allocation to a type that my company knew I hated and on one occasion physical violence and intrusion from a passenger whilst flying an Aztec that resulted in that person being convicted of hijacking an aircraft and endangering life.

I have no sympathy for Ibbotson or Henderson. They both knew the game they were playing.....and they lost. Simple as that. But never discount the power of commercial pressure when you're under stress to deliver. It clouds a lot of sensible judgment.
Last edited by BoeingBoy on Wed Nov 17, 2021 12:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882536
Dave Johnson wrote:my understanding was that the AAIB concluded that the most probable cause of the crash was pilot incapacitation due to Carbon Monoxide poisoning.


I made the comment somewhere else that it could be the case that CO caused a loss of brain capacity, in the other post, I said, for example, to 70%. If a proper commercial pilot had been flying at FLxxx then they may have only been using 20% of their brain capacity. Flying low, at night, in bad weather, may have taken 95% brain capacity, and thus a reduction to 70% would have caused overload.

Sooty25 wrote:The football industry, the teams, the players and all those inbetween are awash with cash, so if anyone needs to cut corners, it isn't this lot.


So what of the agent who actually booked this flight with Henderson, presumably to save a few thousand for his own pocket?
By A4 Pacific
#1882538
I think it’s a little harsh to blame the customer for the legality of what they’ve purchased purely on the basis of price paid.

Caveat emptor can only go so far. Otherwise how would airlines selling extremely low priced tickets manage to sell any?

We can’t be expected to be familiar with all the business models of those we have dealings with. There’s a name for selling something you know isn’t legit.

As I’ve said earlier, under the circumstances, this accident was perfectly plausible (probably even ‘likely’) either with, or without the involvement of CO.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882545
Paul_Sengupta wrote:So what of the agent who actually booked this flight with Henderson, presumably to save a few thousand for his own pocket?


The agent didn't save any money on this flight. Salas wanted to go back to say farewell to his ex-teammates and was searching for a flight which he intended to pay for himself, as would be expected. It was then that the agent's son, and new teammate, offered Salas the flight free of charge. So an expense for the agent, rather than a saving.
Last edited by patowalker on Sat Nov 13, 2021 8:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
By A4 Pacific
#1882552
Whatever you may think of him, (I don’t know him from Adam!) Willie McKay broke no law here. Anyone dragging his name into this seems merely to be seeking to shift the blame from the guilty.
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By seanxair
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882558
A4 Pacific wrote:Whatever you may think of him, (I don’t know him from Adam!) Willie McKay broke no law here. Anyone dragging his name into this seems merely to be seeking to shift the blame from the guilty.


Really? Shifting blame?

McKay is just another catalyst in the cash driven / dodgy / slippery / tax avoiding world that fuels grey charters.
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882565
patowalker wrote:It was then that the agent's son, and new teammate, offered Salas the flight free of charge. So an expense for the agent, rather than a saving.


Yes, but it would have been more expensive to have done it in a properly chartered Citation Mustang (which I think the previous proper flight had been in) so he asked his "mate" who he had had previous dealings with, for a cheap flight - I assume knowing it was a bit dodgy, not because of the price per-se but because he knew of "a cheap way of doing it", though that's speculation on my part.
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By Sooty25
#1882567
Paul_Sengupta wrote:
Sooty25 wrote:The football industry, the teams, the players and all those inbetween are awash with cash, so if anyone needs to cut corners, it isn't this lot.


So what of the agent who actually booked this flight with Henderson, presumably to save a few thousand for his own pocket?


Many years ago, I got pulled out of a stream of flowing traffic, and got done for speeding. I protested "what about the others I was keeping pace with" to the traffic cop. He just said "it's their lucky day".

Nobody has said the agent was innocent in all this, and I bet he's s**t himself more than once on hearing a knock on his door. I doubt he'll ask for another cheap flight though.
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By Cessna571
#1882580
neil9327 wrote:Was it purely the fact that money was being illegally made, that made this flight dangerous? I.e. had the pilot agreed to fly the guy for free, would this have prevented the crash?


Yes, because if it was being done as a favour for free, the pilot would most probably have said “This is ridiculous, I’m not taking off into worsening weather at night”.

The fact there was money involved made the pilot do a dangerous/stupid thing.

In this instance it was the money that caused the accident because without it, the flight would not have happened at all.
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By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882595
Do you know that Ibbotson was to be paid for the flight? I know no more about this than what I read in UK, French and Argentine newspapers, but I am not convinced the pilot was paid to fly that aircraft. He aspired to a CPL and was known to have flown many hundreds of hours of para dropping for free. "Do you fancy a weekend in Nantes? does not sound like an invitation to earn money, and hotel expenses were on Henderson's credit card, I would suggest there is a possibility that Ibbotson was on expenses only and that his lack of means meant that he jumped at any opportunity to fly the Malibu for Henderson.

Much has been written about his lack of a night rating, but that only refers to his UK licence. He had valid night privileges on his FAA licence. That does not make the flight legal, but it does dispel the notion that he lacked night training.
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By Jonzarno
#1882598
"Do you fancy a weekend in Nantes? does not sound like an invitation to earn money


Except that being given the flight for free counts as payment and, in any case, this part of the case is the charge to which DH pleaded guilty.

He had valid night privileges on his FAA licence. That does not make the flight legal, but it does dispel the notion that he lacked night training.


Not necessarily.

I have an FAA piggyback PPL plus an FAA IR. I did no night training at all before I had all of these so did a separate UK night rating when I got back to the UK after passing the IR in the US.
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By A4 Pacific
#1882605
#patowalker
Do you know that Ibbotson was to be paid for the flight? I know no more about this than what I read in UK, French and Argentine newspapers, but I am not convinced the pilot was paid to fly that aircraft.


Clearly you, like most here, whilst having a strong opinion, can’t even be bothered to read the AAIB report. Preferring to hold forth your ‘convictions’ on the basis of what you may (or may not) have read in newspapers instead?

The pilot began flying N264DB in June 2018. He flew it and another similar type regularly around the UK and Europe. The pilot’s records showed that he had been paid a fee for flights on numerous occasions. Other evidence showed that he was to be paid a fee for the accident flight.


Notwithstanding that, as Jonzarno helpfully pointed out Henderson had no option but to plead guilty to this aspect.

Rather helpfully the AAIB report is available to anyone wishing to read it, here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/5e579c64e90e071104be6c81/AAR_1-2020_N264DB_Lo_res.pdf
Last edited by A4 Pacific on Sun Nov 14, 2021 10:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1882608
I was wrong on both points. Thanks for putting me right. I did read the the AAIB report when it came out, and should have read it again before posting. I am going back into my hole now. :(
By midlifec
#1882613
Just for those who may think that Henderson’s dealings with the McKay’s were limited, or that the McKay’s were unaware of how the whole non AOC grey charter business runs, google Excelfoot in companies house, have a look at the directors, then look in G-INFO and take a look at the equestrian sounding Pa31 owned for a period by Excelfoot, this aircraft was flown extensively by Henderson, Robert Murgatroyd and other well known ‘grey’ ops individuals - it was also maintained by the same company that looked after the Malibu. It suffered a “mishap” having been flown well beyond the mandated maintenance period without inspection and with a known defect. Almost all of the individuals listed on court documents for this case have been working together for a very long time.
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