Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By ls8pilot
#1878265
AFAIK the sporting frequencies are the exception to this rule... you don't need an FRTOL to use them, although the aircraft or ground station does need a licence. I assume this is purely historical precedence.... does make we wonder if the LAA could get a number of frequencies allocated in the same way the BGA, BPA, etc have done?
By PaulisHome
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878269
lobstaboy wrote:
PaulisHome wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:It doesn't make sense from a user convenience and safety point of view. It's an unfortunate consequence of the WT Act. Radio stations are the entities that are licenced to operate on a certain frequency (or frequencies) and you can't have a radio station without at least one qualified operator. So an aerodrome without a qualified radio operator can't have a radio station and so it can't have a frequency.
Similarly it is not legal for someone on the ground to use a handheld to transmit on Safetycom.
It's probably unfair to blame the CAA - it's Ofcom that says what the WT Act means.
All very stupid.


I still don't understand - because who said anything about a radio station?

What we need is airfields to have discrete frequencies that aircraft can use. That doesn't require the airfield to have a radio station.

[BTW - can you point to the relevant bit of the WT act? Not disputing what you've said - just interested].

Paul


Sorry, let me try again. The WT Act and Ofcom relate to radio stations - meaning entities licenced to transmit. For example your aircraft can be a radio station - and to be legal it must have a radio transmitting station licence and a radio operator licenced to use it.
The way the legislation is structured means that licences are granted to radio transmitting stations. Without a radio transmitting station there is nothing to grant a licence to. So no frequency can be allocated.
In other words they can't simply allocate a frequency to an airfield, it has to have a radio transmitting station and that necessitates a licenced operator.
(radio station here doesn't mean anything big with masts and aerials - it can be a person with a handheld as long as the paperwork is in place)
There isn't really a part of the act to refer to - it's a result of the structure and inbuilt assumptions.
I am not defending this state of affairs, far from it, just explaining a Yes, Minister! issue.


I'm not arguing with this - just trying to understand it.

So there's no actual legislation - it's merely CAA / Ofcom interpretation? But they clearly don't need a specific radio for Safetycom or any of the gliding frequencies, so I don't see why they couldn't do the same for an airfield.

But I think you're right about it being at least in in the inbuilt assumptions - I was met with a degree of incomprehension when I tried to argue the point.

Paul
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By lobstaboy
#1878272
ls8pilot wrote:AFAIK the sporting frequencies are the exception to this rule... you don't need an FRTOL to use them, although the aircraft or ground station does need a licence. I assume this is purely historical precedence.... does make we wonder if the LAA could get a number of frequencies allocated in the same way the BGA, BPA, etc have done?


Yes. And I think the LAA taking that approach could work in getting some GA use air to air frequencies for chat aka situational awareness. But that's different to a farm strip asking for a frequency for their own traffic to self announce on.
By PaulisHome
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878273
ls8pilot wrote:AFAIK the sporting frequencies are the exception to this rule... you don't need an FRTOL to use them, although the aircraft or ground station does need a licence. I assume this is purely historical precedence.... does make we wonder if the LAA could get a number of frequencies allocated in the same way the BGA, BPA, etc have done?


Not exactly. The rule is that you need a FRTOL to talk to an ATSU. No ATSU involved, no FRTOL needed. That's why the sporting frequencies can be used without a FRTOL.

You're right that the radios involved need a license.

Paul
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By ROG
#1878471
Pre covid, a couple of years ago I was landing at Calais.
Called Calais tower xx joining downwind right hand 24.
I then heard xx right hand downwind for 06.--no airport prefix.
What the ***** is he doing ,said I to my mate.
Calais tower please confirm 24--yes yes I already told you -in
annoyed french voice.
I called aircraft downwind for 06-its 24 repeat 24.
I next called base --cant see him --but looking out.
He calls base.
I called again " Calais tower *** turning final 24--,--"CLEARED TO LAND"
Other aircraft called final 06..
I"m ready to turn right if necessary --no sign of him--it wasn"t making sense landed-eyes peeled --- no other aircraft.
Of course there was another aircraft--not calling any airfield by name--he was somewhere in england --his transmissions had beamed into calais.
If he had SAID THE AIRFIELD NAME when calling it would have been obvious but he never did and calais tower didn"t hear him.
One big coincidence that his circuit mirrored mine---it can happen,--
PS--a lot of french transmissions hit Andrewsfield.
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By kanga
#1878504
ISTR in '60s, ie well before .25 let alone 8.33 KHz, that Liverpool Tower and Birmingham Tower were oin same frequency (or within bandpass of then frequently dodgy receivers!). It was usually no problem when users were lowish, but in anoprop conditions it could be tricky as both Speke and Elmdon had a 06/24.
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By ls8pilot
#1878520
Prior to 8.33 we used to occasionally get someone ordering meals in French on one of the gliding frequencies (130.125 IIRC) - I believe it was a company frequency for use at CdG.... I think it depends a lot on the weather conditions just how far transmissions propogate?
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By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878526
You occasionally get interference on VHF signals when high-pressure systems exist, causing atmospheric ducting propagation effects.

Iceman 8)
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By FlightDek
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878527
I remember receiving a Spanish FM station along the A66 just west of Penrith. Bit of a surprise but I recognised the station name displayed on my radio - Onda Cero. It was the day after London was awarded the Olympics and they were discussing this. Only lasted for a couple of miles and then disappeared
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By Iceman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878529
I remember a few years back en route to Jersey one day, talking to London Info, and hearing a glider site in Germany.

Iceman 8)
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By Cub
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878536
Iceman wrote:You occasionally get interference on VHF signals when high-pressure systems exist, causing atmospheric ducting propagation effects.

Iceman 8)


I once had a brief conversation with a Norwegian controller while doing Luton Radar on a very high pressure day.
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By ozplane
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878632
I know we've been here before but I always hear Membury on SafetyCom from our strip near Cambridge, regardless of the weather conditions. Is it summat to do with the big mast in the area?
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By FlightDek
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878634
ozplane wrote:I know we've been here before but I always hear Membury on SafetyCom from our strip near Cambridge, regardless of the weather conditions. Is it summat to do with the big mast in the area?


More likely to do with the fact Membury is almost 700ft AMSL so transmissions from aircraft in the circuit will travel further