Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By MattL
#1878045
Good advice from @Lefty Standards Document 14 for the official class rating stuff, and the SE Prof Check briefing from the FEH is worth reading as well (Appendix 5)
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878070
In my experience one of the major challenges facing the CRI is establishing a baseline - and identifying what you need to focus on.
An FI is always starting from zero and has a clearly defined programme of lessons to get the student from zero thru to Skills test. The CRI frequently has to carry out an assessment - and then develop a plan take the student from whatever their baseline is - thru to LPC.

The “ab initio” student has little if any preconceived ideas or bad habits - and will (mostly) blindly accept their FI’s teaching. On the other side, a returning lapsed PPL sometimes comes with some experience and Pre-conceived ideas about what they need to do (or not do), and will sometimes be resistant to a CRI telling them that it wasn’t perfect and that they need to do things in a way that they might disagree with.

It can sometimes be a little difficult when your “student” tells you that he has been flying “his way” for 40 or 50 years and “no-one has ever tried to correct him before. One sometimes has to be quite persuasive to overcome this kind of resistance.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878082
I believe you are correct Lefty, which perhaps makes some interesting points about the fundamental difference between CRI and FI not being what we do in training, but what we do later.

This task of reading a student, identifying and working out their needs, strengths and weaknesses, and creating a specific syllabus - as well as dealing with multiple issues of flying standards feature in most of what we do, and what is quite rightly picked up in our renewal tests.

It is theoretically part of an FI's skillset, but in reality they spend most of their time teaching ab-initio, so inevitably most do not concentrate upon that skillset. Certainly anybody who thinks it's just a case of picking which standard PPL exercise to teach, absolutely doesn't get it.

And that does make an important point I think - the reality of where any of us are as instructors, is where we've come through the totality of our experience, mentoring, renewals, and so-on. Any instructor: FI, CRI, whatever of reasonable experience, probably has tens, or hundreds times more experience instructing than they do of being trained as an instructor. So that's what really defines us, not the initial instruction we received.

G
By Gasbag
#1878083
Bit confused here (and it’s not just the wine!)
As an FI of some years standing, what privileges does a CRI have over my rating?
Also, post the initial lockdowns (more to come?) nearly all my instructing has been getting back up to an LPC standard and virtually nil ab initio. Type checks etc abound.
Cannot see that a CRI is better qualified to do that? Why?
CRI’s do a good job but can’t understand the arguments above at all!
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878097
The legal privileges a CRI has is to function outside of an ATO.

The rest of your points are entirely valid. So Covid has effectively turned most FIs into CRIs of necessity?

What you are probably seeing is a degree of kickback against being regularly told we aren't proper instructors, on the basis that it's the length of the course which matters rather than the rigour of the skill test and subsequent renewals, or the amount of experience.

G
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By G-BLEW
Boss Man  Boss Man
#1878116
As an FI of some years standing, what privileges does a CRI have over my rating?


I think that some instructors (presumably only for historic reasons) don't have FCL.945 privileges?

Ian
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By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878123
@G-BLEW It’s just a timing thing, Ian.

Any instructor qualifying within the last three or so (?) years gets FCL.945 automatically, others have to apply for it to be added.
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By MattL
#1878124
@Genghis the Engineer I think part of the reason is the onus on a CRI to keep up to date, keep their own standards up and develop. FIs tend to be in a more structured supervision environment.

I’ve flown with CRIs who are absolute stars who have experience and skills that will be very difficult to find elsewhere. Equally I’ve flown with some who I wouldn’t rent an aircraft to and wouldn’t pass a PPL test. I don’t generally see that variability with FIs.

If CRIs keep up their instructional currency and keep up to date / get mentored, it’s a brilliant capability.

Ps I’m not prejudiced against them, I was one of the very early CRIs before doing an FI course
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By MattL
#1878125
GrahamB wrote:@G-BLEW It’s just a timing thing, Ian.

Any instructor qualifying within the last three or so (?) years gets FCL.945 automatically, others have to apply for it to be added.


Unless they are restricted LAPL only
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By Ibra
#1878143
MattL wrote:
GrahamB wrote:@G-BLEW It’s just a timing thing, Ian.

Any instructor qualifying within the last three or so (?) years gets FCL.945 automatically, others have to apply for it to be added.


Unless they are restricted LAPL only


A side question, how does “LAPL restriction” appear on instructor certificates? is it “LAPL only” or something like “no FCL945” or “no CPL exams”? or it’s in CAA records?
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By Volare
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1878240
Slight thread drift here. I'm hoping to get my CRI rating next month with a view to doing biennial checks, tail dragging and mono instruction. I was also hoping to do license upgrades from NPPL and LAPL to PPL but I gather that this isn't possible because it would be deemed to be ab-initio instructing for the grant of a new license. Seems silly to me as some NPPL and LAPL holders wanting to upgrade their license to PPL may have more flying experience then me!

From @Ibra post I gather that a LAPL license holder can add a CRI to their license ? I thought the only 'rating' you could add to the LAPL was a night or mountain rating.
By Ibra
#1878250
Volare wrote:I gather that a LAPL license holder can add a CRI to their license ? I thought the only 'rating' you could add to the LAPL was a night or mountain rating.


No, I was just asking an off topic question: how FI restriction to LAPL appear on FCL PPL/CPL papers :wink: not if you can add FI/CRI to LAPL…

You DO need FCL PPL or CPL/ATPL to add CRI certificate, unfortunately you can’t add it or carry over to FCL LAPL or any of the UK legacy papers (UKPPL, BCPL/UKATPL, NPPL)

Sadly, some type/class expertise has gone under the radar in Annex1/2 & Microlights & SLMG where there is a lack of FI & CRI “who is happy to fly that” (heard it once :lol: ), also, any sort of FCL instruction needs C2 medical (PMD would not sort it out, not sure about “restricted CRI to teach glider towing” but let that dog sleep between BGA & CAA)
Last edited by Ibra on Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.