Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By flyer5
#1877839
rdfb wrote:
flyer5 wrote:So my point was whilst GPS is important avoiding controlled airspace, does it have any special benefits once you enter controlled airspace?


I think that the entire "special benefit" is solely to make it easier for the pilot to discharge the responsibilities that all pilots have already, GPS or no GPS. It's just much harder work and more error-prone to do that without a moving map, especially in today's much more complicated UK airspace.

I can't think of any "special benefit" of a moving map in any kind of airspace that involves anyone who isn't the pilot. Your interactions with everyone else remain exactly the same precisely because your responsibilities remain exactly the same.

Example: I remember an occasion I entered controlled airspace (for the purpose of landing at the controlling aerodrome) and got a (VFR) clearance limit of a VRP I wasn't expecting, and thus hadn't briefed. A moving map made it easier to find and navigate to. Had I been using a paper chart, I'd be routing to it nonetheless, albeit with some additional delay and embarrassment in appearing incompetent.


So my original question was would ATC gain anything by knowing you had GPS moving map. You have just outlined why a pilot with moving map is under less pressure. To me that equals less likely to make mistakes. To me that means in circumstances where there is a lot going on, the controller might like to choose the requests that are most likely to minimize their workload.
By rdfb
#1877842
flyer5 wrote:To me that means in circumstances where there is a lot going on, the controller might like to choose the requests that are most likely to minimize their workload.


A pilot who is highly competent with a paper chart is quite entitled to continue using it, and I don't think it's reasonable for that pilot to be discriminated against by ATC (eg. refused more transits than average) just because they aren't using a moving map. For example, this could be a local pilot who knows the area intimately.

I think it's reasonable for ATC to prioritise based on actual competency. For example if you freecall and can't do your R/T, then it's reasonable for a transit to be refused if they're nearly completely busy and don't expect to have the time to hold the pilot's hand.

However to presume that a pilot is ineffective at using their paper chart is I think a step over the line into unfair discrimination.
By Fellsteruk
#1877852
Aside from the fact it’s not correct phraseology do they care? We’re accountable to ensure we don’t bust CAS sure thing if we do it causes them a PITA but GPS or paper chart if you plan and navigate correctly what difference does it make.

I’d argue that correct and confident diction when on the radio will give them confidence you know what your doing.

I once heard a guy say “oh Jesus… Ermmm..” when asked for a position report

Don’t think Jesus helped but was a proper gaff. Controller must have been thinking WTF
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877901
Fellsteruk wrote:I once heard a guy say “oh Jesus… Ermmm..” when asked for a position report


That sounds like me, but usually I dont key the mike saying it... :wink:

This will be because I have a sneeking suspicion some French FIS get bored and deliberately call up unsuspecting foreign GA aeroplanes in the middle of no-where to see what kind of obscure vilage name they come up with... :study:
Another favorite is the "report obscureunpronouncableville at 2000ft" :scratch:

Ive discovered that you can get them back by having "Airway waypoints" turned on in Skydemon and reply to a position report with "1mile south of ETPAR" pronouncing it as a word... :twisted:

Regards, SD.. :clown:
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By Rob P
#1877921
Fellsteruk wrote:Controller must have been thinking WTF


My totally favourite controller story was of the RAF lady ATC called very apologetically by one of Lakenheath's finest, confessing that he'd forgotten his section's allocated callsign.

The controller immediately allocated them "Stupid Section" which they dutifully used for the rest of the detail.

Firsthand story, non-apocryphal

Rob P
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By kanga
#1877934
PeteSpencer wrote:..

.. old farts using steam VOR/DMEs ..


for some of us even older farts, that's modern hi-tech stuff :)

[QDMs were the norm, NDBs were a bonus if you had a working ADF, and Radio Ranges had lately been in the PPL syllabus .. :wink: ]
By Fellsteruk
#1877951
What’s wrong with vor, dme they are the future ain’t they well according to the ppl syllabus I just completed :p
By malcolmfrost
#1877961
skydriller wrote:Ive discovered that you can get them back by having "Airway waypoints" turned on in Skydemon and reply to a position report with "1mile south of ETPAR" pronouncing it as a word... :twisted:

Regards, SD.. :clown:

Airways waypoints are designed to be spoken as a word! Would you report at Kilo Alpha Tango Hotel Yankee or just KATHY? :D
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877965
malcolmfrost wrote:Airways waypoints are designed to be spoken as a word! Would you report at Kilo Alpha Tango Hotel Yankee or just KATHY?


Yes, but pronunciation is everything... :wink:
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877977
Fellsteruk wrote:What’s wrong with vor, dme they are the future ain’t they well according to the ppl syllabus I just completed :p


If you plan on doing an IMC rating, they're in your future...
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By flyer5
#1877981
kanga wrote:[QDMs were the norm, NDBs were a bonus if you had a working ADF, and Radio Ranges had lately been in the PPL syllabus .. :wink: ]


Well I did an ATPL in 1969 and they never mentioned Radio Range so you must be even older than me :shock:
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By kanga
#1878031
flyer5 wrote:..

Well I did an ATPL in 1969 and they never mentioned Radio Range so you must be even older than me :shock:


It was part of the Canadian PPL syllabus (which included radio nav theory) in '68, even after the last Range had been withdrawn in Canada :? But apparently there were still some around, possibly in Australia, and the syllabus had not been updated.
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By flyer5
#1881509
I asked Luton:

is there any merit in mentioning in the first call something like “G-ABCD, PA-20 etc … VFR with Moving Map … etc”?


The response from Anthony Hatch, Operations Manager, NATS was:

Quick answer is “no”.
Long answer:
ATC now fully expect most, if not all, pilots to be using moving maps of some kind. The most important thing to consider when crossing controlled airspace is use of succinct and to the point radiotelephony. Managing RT workload is actually one of the biggest factors in effectively managing an ATC position, so the more standard calls are, the easier it is.

By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1881517
flyer5 wrote:I asked Luton:
is there any merit in mentioning in the first call something like “G-ABCD, PA-20 etc … VFR with Moving Map … etc”?


The response from Anthony Hatch, Operations Manager, NATS was:

Quick answer is “no”.
Long answer:
ATC now fully expect most, if not all, pilots to be using moving maps of some kind. The most important thing to consider when crossing controlled airspace is use of succinct and to the point radiotelephony. Managing RT workload is actually one of the biggest factors in effectively managing an ATC position, so the more standard calls are, the easier it is.


Glad to see sanity reigns.

Personally I'd be way too embarrassed to effectively announce as in the OP, as it has connotations of:

"I don't really know what I'm doing, but at least I have a moving map, so pretty puhlease let me through your airspace."

Even without a moving map, it's still possible to look up the VFR transit routes in the AIP, and become familiar with the VRPs.

I have failed to do that in the past (once), and thoroughly deserved to sound like a muppet, as indeed I did. It was at East Mids, and the fact that they were so nice just rammed my embarrassment in harder. It was a lesson well learned.
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