Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By DavidC
#1877207
There seems to be an increasing trend for airfields to provide an online/web based PPR and/or landing fee payment scheme. I've observed that rather than adopt/share a common solution, we are at the earlier stage of evolution where there are individual apps for each airfield. I guess as these evolve and develop, we might see some consolidation with the better solutions winning out. I doubt there is much money in it for software developers, so many of these will be a labour of love.

Examples include
- Llanbedr/Flysnowdonia.com. Arguably the best I've come across to date. Includes automatic PPR, checking the date/time you've requested, validating your phone number with SMS, taking your card details via Stripe but only charging it after confirmation that you did land.
- Wellesbourne. QR code on the tower door, links to payment website used on your phone to pay appropriate landing fee. Quick and easy to use.
- Enstone. Combines PPR and landing fee, but you have to pay when requesting PPR.
- Deanland.
- Brimpton.
- Perpignan France. Possibly the worst I've encountered. Was unable to use for PPR and ended up emailing instead. Took payment but didn't issue the gate code, so again had to contact the service desk to get airside.

I am sure there are many others.

The only wider scheme/App I am aware of is Aerops, which seems fairly popular throughout Germany and does have a few UK participants. I believe they charge 5% + 50p per transaction to the airfield, no extra fees to the pilot.

While I'm not a huge fan of PPR generally, because it can reduce spontaneity and flexibility, I quite like the idea of knowing in advance what the fees will actually be and being able to pay them without much hassle. For example, visiting an airfield for circuits but not having to land to pay the fees can be quite useful and convenient.

Do Flyers find these systems helpful and time saving or awkward/painful?

What do we think the next stages of evolution of these websites will be? For example some are trying to charge for fuel too.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877209
Cranfield has such a n online system for PPR / fees .
Sadly however this doesn’t exist for refuelling where the refueller leaves his truck in front of your aeroplane and. walks with you to the Ops room at the far end of a row of hangars and waits while you pay by card to the bloke behind the desk A 400yd round trip but depends on where you park potentially half a mile . :roll:
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By Rob P
#1877225
DavidC wrote: Enstone. Combines PPR and landing fee, but you have to pay when requesting PPR.


Well there's one field I am unlikely to be visiting again.

Rob P

Afterthought: You know, I have often contemplated the day when my headset goes on ebay, with a fair amount of dread. But when I read bollox like that I can't help think the best of it has gone, never to return. Perhaps it won't be such a sad day after all? :(
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877230
Do Flyers find these systems helpful and time saving or awkward/painful?


I find many of them dreadful. There are forms that get filled in and get lost without a response. I still prefer to telephone PPR the owner at a private farm/airstrip to receive instant approval.

But other aerodromes that are open to the public which demand such awkwardness will generally never get my custom.
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877233
I quite like the idea of knowing in advance what the fees will actually be


Most larger aerodromes will publish this on their "Fees/ Condition of use" manual. Most of these fees are revised every tax year.

A form of prepayment can be helpful without needing to walk miles to pay someone - much like the RingGo or PayByPhone car parking apps, but I don't want to mix prepayment up with PPR.
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By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877234
Barton has this, the PPR system is fine (though I am on the side of those that think PPR is an unnecessary requirement at most airfields) the payment system - Redstar, is not great, at least for based aircraft, rather than just logging in and it telling you what you owe you have to go through hoops adding “uncharged activity”, it is ok once you have used it a few times but most people I have spoken to have problems the first time, probably worse for visiting aircraft!
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877236
No doubt not long now before we have to file a FPL before we set off into the wide blue yonder...

Paying by app for landing/fuel great. Not come across Aerops in Germany myself. The germans may be great at building cars and having a great GA infrastructure as far as matters IT are concerned it is all very much stone age here (not just in matters GA IT)
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877243
DavidC wrote:Enstone. Combines PPR and landing fee, but you have to pay when requesting PPR.


In my view this is downright dangerous. :naughty:

Someone, somewhere, will at some point, take off into dodgy weather "to get there and not waste the money paid". We can all say it wont happen over a 10 or 20 quid fee, but it will be a reason for some to say "Ill give it a go" rather than staying on the ground.

Regards, SD..
Rob P, Flyin'Dutch', bogopper and 2 others liked this
#1877251
Maybe Skydemon should build the functionality into their software. Airfield subscribes to the service, Skydemon handles the transaction and takes a slice. Passes on monthly balance to each airfield. Software confirms arrival and departures.

Tim, you heard it hear first and if you use the idea I want a slice of the action!
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By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877272
Rob P wrote:
skydriller wrote:In my view this is downright dangerous. :naughty:


Wholly agree. There has to be a refund system.


The PPR form takes you to the payment page, but you don't have to actually pay.

I went to Enstone a couple of months ago. I can't remember exactly how I worked the PPR page to not pay on the spot, but there was definitely an option to pay online after the visit. I did this by PayPal late that evening.

There's a separate link for payment too:

https://www.enstoneaerodrome.co.uk/payment-for-ppr/

It's shambolic, having to do it that way (ie go to the payment page, and then cancel), but at least it's possible.
#1877280
I have no inherent problem with PPR, but it feels like there is not always a logical reason on why it is being requested.

Some airfields (for example, Kittyhawk) offer Auto-PPR on completion of an online form. But if you're automatically approving PPR without a human looking at it, is it actually a request for permission or really just a paperwork exercise (presumably to reaffirm 'liability' if the pilot ticks a box to say that they have read the noise abatement procedures etc)?

At least with a phone call, someone is pro-actively telling you that you can or cannot come there.

For me, I like to be able to get to the airfield and then - if I don't have a specific plan - make a choice there and then about where I might fly to, based on the conditions, wind direction etc. I am actively put off choosing certain airfields because of onerous PPR requirements.

Conversely, sometimes, if I'm planning a few days ahead, I like to get PPR by email when I'm sat in front of my computer and not in a rush.

It would be good to have a standardised system, but for there to be common standards as part of that - in that airfields can state why PPR is required:

NO PPR required: just rock up and speak to us on frequency (if applicable) when you're inbound
AUTO-PPR: anyone welcome, we just want to know who is landing here, purely out of interest
AUTO-PPR: we need to verify that you've read and understood our procedures
POSITIVE PPR: we need to pro-actively brief you on specifics before you can land here, because they are unusual/challenging/specific
POSITIVE PPR: we like the ability to manually approve visitors

If you've got PPR, it would be great to be able to let them know if you're no longer coming and also pay your landing fee via the same system, assuming you landed.

Maybe even pre-order your bacon-butty....like the halfway hut on a golf course!

I'm reminded of apps like OpenTable etc that let you book a restaurant. I'm always very cynical when I'm booking at extremely short notice (e.g. do they have a table in 10 minutes that I can walk to) becuase I assume they don't check their digital systems often enough to even be aware of my booking before I arrive.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1877318
flyingearly wrote:It would be good to have a standardised system,


This exists. Its called the AIP and NOTAMs.

For private airstrips asking permission is just good manners.
For those without manners there is PPR.

Regards, SD..
Pete L, Flyin'Dutch', Iceman liked this
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