Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1876925
A4 Pacific wrote:I don’t know, but I presume the engine failure in itself (should it require any repair?) would not normally be covered by insurance?

That's how I understand it. Somone who had an engine quit causing a forced landing with slight damage told me that that the insurers were very careful to pay for the damage caused by the landing (and after!) plus the other recovery costs, but NOT the actual engine failure itself.
#1876930
Dominie wrote:
A4 Pacific wrote:I don’t know, but I presume the engine failure in itself (should it require any repair?) would not normally be covered by insurance?


Exactly so, in my experience. Failure of rotor head part caused blade to cut tailboom. Part failure not covered, blade and tailboom replacement fully covered.
#1876956
I can't speak as an expert on insurance, but I would be reasonably certain that my insurer would cover the costs of the engine if mine failed and I carried out a successful autorotation.

Certainly, mine was covered when someone (not me!) hot started it - for those who don't know, an old school turbine engine can basically eat itself if the start isn't carried out correctly. In fact, my policy includes betterment, so some parts that were 70% timed out were replaced with 0 timed parts. But I pay handsomely for the privilege these days on an annual basis!

Oh and yes, the tailboom was almost certainly chopped by the blade during the touchdown: I would wager that in the excitement of carrying out a good auto, the pilot flared correctly at the end but didn't level the ship quite enough during touchdown and was still hauling back on the cyclic as the blades slowed and before the teeter stops dropped in. But chapeau to him, he did a great job, everyone walked away and the a/c could probably be repaired BUT probably won't be as it's an Agusta-made machine and parts are very hard to come by. The boom is made of thin gauge aluminium and the thickest thing would have been a mild steel shaft maybe 2cm in diameter to drive the tail rotor. The blade has a thick aluminium leading edge and each blade weighs 43kg. At least one of the blades will be a write off, but if they do scrap the machine, the surviving blade will be worth a fortune as they are like hen's teeth.

[I don't come on here often these days but used to be here all the time . I have owned a couple of JetRangers and have 650 hours on them. If you want to flame me - as usually happens when I do occasionally post these days - fill your boots]
Iceman, Rob P, patowalker and 1 others liked this
#1876963
flyingsniffer wrote:Oh and yes, the tailboom was almost certainly chopped by the blade during the touchdown


You are correct; any experienced helicopter would also agree.

Yes, there is both a lack of understanding and disdain for both helicopters and helicopter pilots here (odd that a helicopter-related post has made it to two pages. Of course, by mentioning you’ve owned a couple helicopters, you’ve been branded with the “Wide Boy” moniker on this forum. Someone will be along now to disagree (but their focus will surely be on RAF or police stuff).

As for tail chop stories, you don’t need an autorotation to lumpy surface; about 12 years ago a student chopped off a tail doing his run-up checks. The instructor needed to pop inside and left him to warm up the helicopter. At the point of the check for the low rotor RPM warning (where you slightly raise the collective and reduce RPM to get the warning horn), he raised the collective a bit too much and too quickly, heli rocked back on rear skids, he quickly slammed the collective down and helicopter chopped off the tail boom.
Sooty25 liked this
#1876971
Iceman wrote:How much for a new JetRanger engine, £100k ?
Iceman 8)


A hot start is a circa 80k fix. Wouldn't have thought you can get a whole new engine for another 20k.

The RR300 in R66 costs about 250k. The Allison (ie Rolls Royce) 250-C20J in a JetRanger is what the RR300 was derived, so I'd assume at least the same price, but probably more dear.
#1876973
Iceman wrote:I remember Rotorhead, late of this parish, demonstrating auto-rotation to me in his JetRanger. I seem to recall that it seemed like a relative non-event although he didn’t take it all the way to touch down.

Iceman 8)


Indeed, a practice autorotation should be a non-event, even with a touchdown*. We practice them many times, including definitely once a year during proficiency checks with examiners.

However, if the music stops for real, I would imagine that the opportunities to get it a little wrong are magnified a few-fold! Personally, if it happened to me, I would regard it as a great success if the ship remained upright and everyone walked away.

* except - as it happens this one was - in JetRangers fitted with high skids: the lever effect of the head being so far from the ground means that generally 'full-down' autos are discouraged, as it can cause the transmission to rock back and forth or. sometimes....the rotor blade to chop the tail off!
Iceman, Flyin'Dutch' liked this
#1876976
RisePilot wrote: ... there is both a lack of understanding and disdain for both helicopters and helicopter pilots here


I think you are taking light-hearted jibes at the eggbeater fraternity far more seriously than they are ever intended.

Just like Cirrus owners, you will have to learn to live with mock contempt for those who land vertically (See what I did there?)

As for understanding? Education is your job, just as Rob/Sniffs has ably demonstrated above.

Rob P
Iceman, flyingsniffer, Flyin'Dutch' and 1 others liked this
User avatar
By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1876980
RisePilot wrote:there is both a lack of understanding and disdain for both helicopters and helicopter pilots here


I think that to be honest, over and above the hopefully amusing to both "sides" banter, you are probably a little bit right.

Lack of understanding is because, well...obviously...many fixed wing pilots dont fly helicopters or get the opportunity to fly in them as a pax.

I dont know about the disdain bit. I am however, pretty sure that if it exists, some of it comes from negative experiences of helicopters hover taxiing/landing/taking off in close proximity to light aeroplanes. Ive only once or twice had a helicopter pilot approach me and warn of what they are about to do perhaps causing adverse downdraft, yet have experienced many times the adverse affects on light aircraft of downdrafts by helicopters, mostly when for the life of me, I cant understand why they needed to hover taxi quite so close or couldnt take the minute to wander over before start up and say what they're going to do.

I still think helicopters are amazing. If I could afford it, I would learn to fly one - I am lucky enough to get to regularly take one to work though, and very occasionally its not as a pax sat in the back of an S92 "bus", but up front in something like a Jet Ranger or EC120... 8)

Regards, SD..
#1876998
RisePilot wrote:
Iceman wrote:How much for a new JetRanger engine, £100k ?
Iceman 8)


A hot start is a circa 80k fix. Wouldn't have thought you can get a whole new engine for another 20k.

The RR300 in R66 costs about 250k. The Allison (ie Rolls Royce) 250-C20J in a JetRanger is what the RR300 was derived, so I'd assume at least the same price, but probably more dear.

I've wondered if the reason that Rolls introduced the RR300 after buying Allison was that cit was said to be possible to build and Allison engine entirely out of aftermarket parts.
I would assume that the C250 variants must be the most widely produced turbine engine ever. Just think of all the Jetrangers and Hughes/MD 500s for a start.