Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1875984
National living wage or a genuine living wage? The National living wage is around £9 per hour or about £17k pa.

Let’s say an instructor achieves an average of three instructional flights per working day. For a 220 day year that amounts to about £26 per lesson.

Whether it is reasonable for a skilled flying instructor to be on the minimum Living Wage is a wholly different question.
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By A4 Pacific
#1875995
The best paid jobs in aviation tend to be either dangerous or boring.

Anything rewarding or fun will have queues of folk offering to fly for less than the next guy/gal. It’s supply and demand governing rates of pay.
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By F70100
#1876034
TLRippon wrote:I often wonder how much flying lessons would cost if the instructors were paid a basic living wage for the hours they attend the school rather than the hours they fly?


Assuming an instructor is employed full time, attends 40 hours per week and works 48 weeks per year for a salary of, say £36k. With employers costs of employment (NI, pension etc), assume a cost to the employer of, say £40k.

Assume the instructor flies 2 hours every working day (240 of them) = 480 hours. £40000/480 hrs = £83.33 per hour to provide the instructor.

Where do I sign... :?
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By lobstaboy
#1876044
F70100 wrote:
Assume the instructor flies 2 hours every working day (240 of them) = 480 hours. £40000/480 hrs = £83.33 per hour


That's £83.33 per hour flown. With briefing and paperwork time the instructor is still earning less than £40 per hour. There are very few jobs requiring similar levels of training, qualification, and dedication that pay that little.
As a business consultant I wouldn't get out of bed for less than £100 per hour and that had to be for a job I really wanted to do.
By SteveX
#1876048
Those assumptions are way off, and of course are just that - assumptions. No FI is on 36k. The odd CFI maybe.

Assume 2 hours a day is way off, more like 4. So straight away we are down to £40/h, but that is indeed just flying, with briefing it is 20/h therefore.

In any case the bottom line is 20-25/hour (for part-time non-salaried) is the norm. It's a very useful top up for anyone with another job, but that's it.

If relevant, 20/h @ 3 a day, 5 a week, 48 weeks would be a pittance £14,400 to be airborne for 720 hours and perhaps briefing/fuelling planes/writing up student notes etc. for the same amount again. Now at £9.22/hour min wage from 2022 that is 78p over min wage. Minus tax over the 12500 allowance.

Meanwhile the schools charge £50/hour on top of rental for tuition................
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By Pete L
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1876049
I do recall all the young flying instructors being on the skinny side. That may offer a clue. Student induced bowel movements may have been a factor also.
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By Sooty25
#1876052
you need to factor in the value of the flown hour to the instructor, if he is using it to build hours towards a higher rating himself.
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By F70100
#1876059
lobstaboy wrote:
F70100 wrote:
Assume the instructor flies 2 hours every working day (240 of them) = 480 hours. £40000/480 hrs = £83.33 per hour


That's £83.33 per hour flown.


£83.33/hour is what the student would have to pay. On the figures shown above, the instructor is at work 1920 hours per year for £36k gross. That's £18.75/hr before deductions.

SteveX wrote:Those assumptions are way off, and of course are just that - assumptions. No FI is on 36k. The odd CFI maybe.

Assume 2 hours a day is way off, more like 4. So straight away we are down to £40/h, but that is indeed just flying, with briefing it is 20/h therefore.

In any case the bottom line is 20-25/hour (for part-time non-salaried) is the norm. It's a very useful top up for anyone with another job, but that's it.

If relevant, 20/h @ 3 a day, 5 a week, 48 weeks would be a pittance £14,400 to be airborne for 720 hours and perhaps briefing/fuelling planes/writing up student notes etc. for the same amount again. Now at £9.22/hour min wage from 2022 that is 78p over min wage. Minus tax over the 12500 allowance.

Meanwhile the schools charge £50/hour on top of rental for tuition................


The question that was asked was "what would the cost of a lesson be if the instructor was paid a proper living wage". With weather cancellations, no shows, trial flights etc, I reckon 480 hours per year wouldn't be far off. Even at 600 hours per year, the cost to the student for the school to provide the instructor would be £66.66/hour.

Sooty25 wrote:you need to factor in the value of the flown hour to the instructor, if he is using it to build hours towards a higher rating himself.


The modular route to a CPL requires 100 hours of hour building. An FI course these days costs around £9k I believe. The value of an hour flown to the instructor needs to be in excess of £90 just to break even! If you can do your 100 hours in an aircraft at less than £90/hour, you're winning.

Don't get me wrong folks, I know how it is in the real world; been there, done that, and come back for some more... I was simply trying to answer the question what would the cost of a lesson be if instructors were paid a "normal" salary. As has already been proved, no-one instructs in GA in the UK for the money.
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By MattL
#1876064
@F70100 to be an instructor you have to either hold a CPL already or have the hours already, an hours building towards route towards CPL/ATPL went out 20+ years ago.
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By Longfinal
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1876067
MattL wrote:@F70100 to be an instructor you have to either hold a CPL already or have the hours already, an hours building towards route towards CPL/ATPL went out 20+ years ago.


Yes but there are many on the modular route or even those that did integrated course but did'nt get a right hand seat straight away, that find instructing, as experience building, pays dividends when it comes to getting that first airline job.
By SteveX
#1876080
If the question was what would a lesson cost if the instructor was paid a decent wage then wouldn't it actually be less?!!!!

School add on for instructor hour - £50
Instructor paid £20

Pay instructor £30, reduce add on to same (£30) and hey presto.....instructor gets paid MORE, student pays LESS. Everyone a winner. Thanks for watching.
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By Cookie
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1876081
@MattL  wrote:Hour building instructors have been an urban myth for about 20 years now


A few years ago, whilst en-route during a PPL Skill Test an applicant enquired, making conversation, how my hours building is going.

Cookie
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By Bathman
#1876084
At a school close to me the rate of pay is

40 pounds an hour for LAPL/PPL/SEP. Restricted or unrestricted
50 pounds an hour for IMC/Night

Oddly enough the closest school that offers CPL and IR training is offering 35 pounds per hour.
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By Sooty25
#1876086
Cookie wrote:
@MattL  wrote:Hour building instructors have been an urban myth for about 20 years now


A few years ago, whilst en-route during a PPL Skill Test an applicant enquired, making conversation, how my hours building is going.

Cookie



See @MattL even Cookie admits to hour building! :lol:

I'll crawl back in my cave with the other dinosaurs!