[Micromouse]

Hi all,

I’m a student pilot about to take my skills test and like many pilots I’m thinking about the next stages. Been playing the game of what if and looking at aircraft on the market and a seem to be seeing lots of piper arrows, my current steed the pa28 seems to be like hens teeth.

My school has an Arrow I could get converted on, but is buying an Arrow over a non complex pa28 for a new pilot a stupid idea?

I’m also looking for the usual shares and possibly getting an hour builder etc, but they are few as far between unless I want to spend more time in a car than in a aeroplane.

Wayne

Ps I’m physically too large for a 150/152 which is why I haven’t considered one.


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[timjenner]

Hello stranger - Tim here from RHUL! Hope you're well.

Where abouts are you these days? Looking to rent, or only share or buy outright?

Cheers,
Tim

[Micromouse]

Hello stranger - Tim here from RHUL! Hope you're well.

Where abouts are you these days? Looking to rent, share or buy outright?

Cheers,
Tim

Blimey you are a blast from my past!!!!

Current based at Elstree, and looking at all my options

Wayne


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[akg1486]

My school has an Arrow I could get converted on, but is buying an Arrow over a non complex pa28 for a new pilot a stupid idea?

Whenever someone asks a question like "is this a good aircraft?" or "is this or that aircraft the best?" you'll get many opinions, some of then backed up with heated arguments.

The main advantages of an Arrow over a non-complex PA28 are that it's faster and carries more useful load. The disadvantages are that it uses more fuel and has more things that can break, both of which make the flying hours more expensive. I can't vouch for that, but I know that some Arrow pilots claim that the cost per mile travelled is around the same, i.e. that the higher hourly costs are balanced by the higher speed.

There are three things that are "difficult" in an Arrow: managing the gear, learning power settings with two knobs instead of one and getting used to the (slightly) higher speeds. None of these are insurmountable.

So it comes down to what kind of flying you'll be doing: long trips across the continent with lots of people and baggage? Arrow. Mostly shorter flights where time in the air is more important than how far you get? A non-complex PA28 gives you more value for money. (Obviously an Arrow can do local/short flights and a non-complex PA28 is an excellent tourer.)

As someone once wrote in another thread about joining a group: the people in the group are more important than the aircraft they own.

I can't claim to have experience from a wide range of aircraft, but personally I think that the PA28 Archer II is the ideal compromise: it has an 180hp engine that uses 30-35 liters per hour if properly leaned and carries a decent amount of weight. You'll get a TAS of 110 knots most of the time, which (for me) is fast enough. But that's me; other opinions are available.

[Flyingfemme]

If you like an Arrow then a Comanche may be an option. Older, certainly, but prettier and very capable.

[Micromouse]

It was more a question of availability. I’ve seen several arrows for sale, But as soon as a pa28 pops up it’s gone, or it’s silly priced.


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[timjenner]

I rented the same Warriors I trained on for years after getting my licence - comfortable through familiarity, but because it was a busy club/school rental slots at the weekend were basically limited to an hour or two, and even then booked up weeks ahead in the summer. So land aways were basically impossible. My flying really opened up when I joined a quieter club where bookings were in half day blocks instead of half hour blocks... Switched to an AA5B and a bigger airport, although still a simple aircraft felt like quite a different beast to someone who'd spent essentially all their time flying the same aircraft from the same airfield. I actual really enjoyed training again, as well as appreciating the much faster, sharper handling and better load-lugging of something different. Now part own a PA28 somewhere else again - getting out of the constant club currency cycle and being able to go somewhere for the day at short notice is priceless and, to me at least, beats flying a nicer/more capable aircraft any day of the week.

YMMV as always! Depends on what you plan to do - I wouldn't personally be too worried about buying and converting to an Archer, but only if you know it'll suit the type of flying you want to do for a good while yet. I didn't really know what I wanted to do when I first qualified (apart from just /fly/) , but you might!

Cheers,
Tim
PS. PA28s go fast as they're in demand for training or first aircraft people are familiar with. Lots of other types around which are still non-complex!

[PA28]

Arrows are good aeroplanes but the extra maintenance required being a complex type makes the PA28-181 Archer a better aeroplane. Usually the Arrow will be just slightly cheaper to purchase than the equivalent fixed gear.
Having said that good luck finding a PA28 Warrior/Archer for sale at the moment. Same applies to the C172/182.
With regards to flying a complex type they are not difficult you just need to plan ahead more because you are doing 120kts or more in the descent and you can either slow down or go down but not both at the same time.
The check out/required differences training with an instructor for VP prop and Retractable U/C will cover all of this.
I second the PA24 Comanche is a phenomenal aircraft with a much better payload than the Arrow.

[CloudHound]

What you need is a Bellanca Super Viking!

[A le Ron]

Comanche/twin Comanche owners hang onto them for life. Likewise Cessna 182 owners. Just saying.

[PA28]

Comanche/twin Comanche owners hang onto them for life. Likewise Cessna 182 owners. Just saying.

I know. That's why I'm not offering him mine!

[Micromouse]

Saw a Grumman AA5 today.... like it!!! - Thanks Chris!!!

I think I'll hold off on the Arrow for now, at least until i pass and can survive on the school aircraft.

Wayne

[Tac_R]

Hello Wayne,

Just a quick reply as only just seen this (passing a few minutes checking in on the forum before I board a flight home) but happy to offer more detail on return, or by DM, phone etc. - but in short I was in a similar situation until after my first aircraft, a PA28-140 which was a great aircraft and actually quite capable with various (already installed) 'speed mods'.

I really only replaced it as a result of an accident by the flying club that I'd made it available to when I wasn't flying it wrote it off (a whole other story!) but the upshot was I had the opportunity to 'upgrade' to an PA28R-180 Arrow I, which while still a slab-wing Cherokee is so much more capable it has mitigated pretty much any concerns over increased operating- and maintenance costs (actually not that significant, in the end), and gives at least 13 kts - usually 140 - at less fuel burn than the -140 did, at 95kts... (8 1/4 for the Arrow at 65%, against 9 1/2? for the -140).

It isn't a true 4 seater if you want full fuel / range, but I predominantly fly just myself (or sometimes with dog!), or as a 2+2 if the family are with me.

I find the 'complexity' - actually easily learned - only adds to the challenge and enjoyment of the flying (feels more like 'proper' flying?) for me at least.

The Grumman is also a great aircraft, as is - in my own opinion and subject to certain caveats! - the TB10, but I stayed clear of both of those in the end in favour of the continued and likely ongoing TCH support of the PA28.

Any way, just my tuppence worth and hope it helps - good luck with your search!

Kind regards,

David

[TopCat]

Saw a Grumman AA5 today.... like it!!! - Thanks Chris!!!

Clearly a man of taste and discernment.

And you too, @Micromouse

...with my grateful thanks for not drawing attention to the tatty interior

[Rob P]

Has this issue with the spar check after the Embry Riddle wing detaching incident made people reticent to take on an Arrow I wonder?

Rob P