[TopCat]

Is this a consequence of Farnborough’s airspace grab and their reputation for not being nice people to talk to?

There's no such reputation that I know of, and I talk to them a lot.

Farnborough are very nice people to talk to! Generally friendly and helpful.

Very much so. And patient and polite to all the muppets, who as @matthew_w100 says:

use them to practice their RT, demanding basic services and insisting on listing every turning point of their extended cross-country loops, heavily interspersed with ummms and errrs.

Remarkably patient, in fact.

I firmly believe Farnborough shouldn't offer a Basic Service - it should be Listening Watch or Traffic Service (or RCS, obvs). RT practice should use local stations, like Blackbushe, Fairoaks and Redhill. Talk to Farnborough only when you need to access their airspace.

Not sure I'd go this far. They are a LARS service, after all, and do offer TS, workload permitting.

My only complaint is that they often offer clearances very low (not above 2000', which if you take 2 is 1800') over the very wooded and build up area on the Bagshot side of them.

Although they'll usually give higher if asked, they wouldn't the other day due to a string of inbounds, but did give me 3000' over Odiham which was nearly as good. Generally, I don't think the extremely occasional go-around (is that the only reason?) justifies their reluctance to give people an overhead transit at a decent height, but mostly I think they're pretty decent.

[TLRippon]

Why would you take two on a clearance? If they wanted you to take two they would clear
You not above 1800’. Take two is outside CAS.

[TopCat]

Why would you take two on a clearance? If they wanted you to take two they would clear
You not above 1800’. Take two is outside CAS.

Take 2 is to avoid infringements, I thought. A level bust is still an infringement innit, in the current climate and all that?

I mean, I'd probably take 1, or even 0.5 after a mode C check in smooth air, but the point still stands.

[marioair]

Because if you strayed to 2001ft by accident you’d get reported.

[matthew_w100]

To be fair, crossing Farnborough’s CTR does require that you talk to 133.440 MHz, which is only there specifically for controlled airspace transit. All the students should be on the LARS frequency of 125.250 MHz and not clogging up 133.44.

Iceman

As xtophe says, they are more often than not bandboxed. Which is my only complaint about Farnborough - they need to be better resourced. And North and East need listening squawks.

And it's not just students. I myself have been known to fumble a radio call. But when I know I'm rusty I don't start out by asking for a basic service from Farnborough. Or Gatwick. Or Heathrow. Redhill stoically bears the brunt of my ineptitude, and Farnborough gets a listening squawk.

[matthew_w100]

They are a LARS service, after all, and do offer TS, workload permitting.

If everyone who didn't need a TS just maintained a listening watch and not a BS, their workload would permit a TS for everyone who did!

[TopCat]

They are a LARS service, after all, and do offer TS, workload permitting.

If everyone who didn't need a TS just maintained a listening watch and not a BS, their workload would permit a TS for everyone who did!

And if everyone that currently gets a BS asked for a TS (which a lot of them would), there would be no TS available at all most of the time.

Be careful what you wish for.

And TS causes a hell of a lot more RT.

And TBH, even TS is virtually useless for except for anything closer than about a mile and a half. 4 miles, 6 miles, sometimes 7 miles.... pointless.

[matthew_w100]

Yeah but they wouldn't. At least I certainly wouldn't on a clear day, it's far too constraining. And as you say it's mainly irrelevant communication at the speeds I fly.

Solent have got it sorted - anyone who doesn't need transit is pushed off to a listening watch. I know they're not a LARS provider, but the principle seems to work fine.

[Talkdownman]

Heathrow is so much easier than Farnborough, who’d have thought?

ATCOs of different grading, I'm told...

[James Chan]

Because if you strayed to 2001ft by accident you’d get reported.

Not correct. You need to be over 2300ft (or over 2200ft?) to be reported when on a clearance of “not above 2000ft”.

It’s called a Level Bust: https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Level_Bust

[TLRippon]

Why would you take two on a clearance? If they wanted you to take two they would clear
You not above 1800’. Take two is outside CAS.

Take 2 is to avoid infringements, I thought. A level bust is still an infringement innit, in the current climate and all that?

I mean, I'd probably take 1, or even 0.5 after a mode C check in smooth air, but the point still stands.

Well I hope you don’t get a “Fly at 2000’” clearance, how would you cope?

[skydriller]

Yeah but they wouldn't. At least I certainly wouldn't on a clear day, it's far too constraining. And as you say it's mainly irrelevant communication at the speeds I fly.

Solent have got it sorted - anyone who doesn't need transit is pushed off to a listening watch. I know they're not a LARS provider, but the principle seems to work fine.

Because they/you are now used to a system where the air traffic controller of adjacent airspace doesnt want to talk to you. It is "us and them". ATC want you away from "their" airspace and you must "take two" so you dont get done by the CAA for infringing airspace by even a few feet registered by ATCs automaticly reporting CAIT.

Is this how it should be?

[matthew_w100]

Well they do seem to be very accommodating, as they should be, if you actually want to go through the airspace they control (though they do tend to Class C it rather than D). And it is a LOT easier to talk to them without all the Basic Service folk.

[MichaelP]

Two of us took off from Popham to fly back to Kent.
I was in the second aeroplane that took off a good ten minutes later than the first one.
Not having a transponder, and not into being a nuisance we flew below the Farnborough airspace to the Hogs Back and on our way to the east.
‘Was surprised to hear the other aeroplane call up ten minutes behind as we were on final. Why?

The other pilot had made the mistake of calling Farnborough in the past to be reamed out for not having a transponder and told he shouldn’t be there despite being outside of Farnborough’s airspace.
So from then on, he routed around the airspace to be well south of the Gatwick zone on his return to Kent.

It only takes one or two pilots with a bad experience such as this to create a reputation.

I think Steve might have something to say about the complaints made by Farnborough with respect to aircraft in the circuit at Blackbushe...
Blackbushe has long been established as a training airfield, students make errors, and we need to ensure that their enthusiasm is not dented by over zealous enforcement.
The airspace grab should have respected the training field with a greater margin for error perhaps?

Years ago I had a couple of occasions to need to enter the Heathrow zone without a transponder.
The controllers there were helpful and clearances were easily obtained.

[James Chan]

The other pilot had made the mistake of calling Farnborough in the past to be reamed out for not having a transponder and told he shouldn’t be there despite being outside of Farnborough’s airspace.

So where was he exactly when this happened?