Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872775
Our group once had a spirited discussion over the difference between the meaning of 'majority' and 'consensus', one member trying to sell 'consensus' to us as meaning 'unanimous', which of course it doesn't.

In your case as it's only a few hundred pounds each , let the agreeing members vote unanimously for the proposed more expensive replacement, swallow the cost amongst themselves but note what the cost to the dissenting member would have been if he'd joined in and deduct this sum from his share sale price when he moves on.
Edit sp.
Last edited by PeteSpencer on Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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By Maxthelion
#1872777
Chris Royle wrote:" However, the group has to approve their proposed replacement."
Straightforward to specify piloting experience etc, but hat personality criteria do people use......? And how would you measure acceptability? I don't have the answer(s). Just interested to know how people go about selection. As has probably been said, it only takes one group member to upset the apple cart......


We arrange a social engagement where the seller indroduces his proposed replacement to members of the group. You don't get to whinge about the choice of replacement if you don't bother to turn up to vet him/her, unless you have something seriously juicy on them.
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By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872784
it only takes one group member to upset the apple cart......


Thats why you have a set of rules and why I would not join a group without that, our group has never had to resort to the written rules but we have them if needed for exactly this reason!
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By Chris Royle
#1872788
Precisely Foxmoth.
Maxthelion, what are your criteria for judging an individual? Do you decide on and publicise your criteria for applicants to view in advance?
How would you tell someone that they were unsuitable?
Not being difficult, just acknowledging that it's a challenging process,
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By Rob P
#1872795
Do they offer to buy a round?

If "yes" they are in.

If "no" then jog on.

On one occasion the Shiny Colt Group took on a highly qualified individual. He was an airline engineer and he had a stunningly attractive girlfriend.

He never did get the hang of flying the aeroplane though.

Rob P
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By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872798
To me, the simplist is a syndicate should have a defined value, in which share value X number of members = value of aircraft + kitty.
As engine (etc) is used, kitty goes up, aircraft value goes down.
That keeps it simple.

However the question comes on things that the kitty doesn't cover. Ideally your kitty is enough to cover anything, and if there is extra money in there, you decide as a group how to improve the aircraft with it.
By Maxthelion
#1872820
Chris Royle wrote:Precisely Foxmoth.
Maxthelion, what are your criteria for judging an individual? Do you decide on and publicise your criteria for applicants to view in advance?
How would you tell someone that they were unsuitable?
Not being difficult, just acknowledging that it's a challenging process,



Rob has it; if they can operate in a social environment without ringing alarm bells then that's taken as a sign that they are 'a good sort'. As with most syndicates the prime criteria is whether we think we can get on with them rather than whether they have any sort of gift for flying. The last person who joined was a low time PPL who hadn't quite finished his tailwheel endorsement. He checked out on the aeroplane very quickly turned into one of the finest RV-8 pilots I've ever sat behind. When chatting to the prospective newbie over a pint we are also looking for past evidence of fallouts with previous syndicates, a willingness to pitch in and help with maintenance or admin, and also any aspirations of major changes to the group or aeroplane. We like things as they are and we would hate to let in some alpha type who might try and push us down a path we don't want.

Another factor in our favour is that we have a very low turnover of members and we are constantly approached by people wanting to buy in. This means we have a waiting list of known good options who will be offered first refusal when a share becomes available.

One of the tricks to syndicated aircraft ownership is only to buy into desireable aircraft. That way it's easy to sell your share when you need to, and the group is more likely to not have to take the first replacement guy to turn up for want of options that might present a better fit for the group.
Last edited by Maxthelion on Mon Sep 27, 2021 11:48 am, edited 1 time in total.
By Maxthelion
#1872821
riverrock wrote:To me, the simplist is a syndicate should have a defined value, in which share value X number of members = value of aircraft + kitty.
As engine (etc) is used, kitty goes up, aircraft value goes down.
That keeps it simple.
.


Socialist!
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872826
Maxthelion wrote:
One of the tricks to syndicated aircraft ownership is only to buy into desireable aircraft. That way it's easy to sell your share when you need to, and the group is more likely to not have to take the first replacement guy to turn up for want of options that might present a better fit for the group.


The other trick is not to base your desirable aeroplane in the middle of a pilot 'desert' :roll: :lol:
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By foxmoth
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872832
riverrock wrote:To me, the simplist is a syndicate should have a defined value, in which share value X number of members = value of aircraft + kitty.
As engine (etc) is used, kitty goes up, aircraft value goes down.
That keeps it simple..


Not so sure about that - you buy an aircraft for say £50k and have a growing kitty that covers the value falling as the engine gains hours but how do you cover a change in the basic aircraft value - our RV has just gone up and up in value since purchase, we bought for under £100k and the last (1/7th) share went for £20k.
Simple way is that the kitty stays in the group - seller gets their share of the kitty because that increases the amount that the share sells for, new buyer is approved by the rest of the group, if not then the group has the option to buy the share back at the agreed selling price.
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By Maxthelion
#1872834
The crux of the kitty question is this:
Leaving and taking your fraction of the kitty with you despite having run the engine down towards its TBO is the same as going drinking with your mates and each of you shoving a tenner in an empty glass and buying the drinks from that, and then pulling your tenner out again when you decide to leave after the sixth round.
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By riverrock
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872836
Share value / number of shares = aircraft value + kitty.
If aircraft value increases, so does the share value? You presumably are increasing your insured value as well?
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By Sooty25
#1872920
buy the aeroplane in a limited company. Hold the kitty in that company as well.

You then don't own a share in an aeroplane + kitty, you hold a share in a company that has assets. And that is what you sell/transfer. It gets rid of trustees and changing stuff with the CAA when a member changes. It also helps* isolate you from syndicate liabilities should something go wrong.

*note, I said helps not completely
By rdfb
#1872923
foxmoth wrote:Simple way is that the kitty stays in the group - seller gets their share of the kitty because that increases the amount that the share sells for, new buyer is approved by the rest of the group, if not then the group has the option to buy the share back at the agreed selling price.


Aha. It just dawned on me what my confusion was - thank you! I have been missing a nuance here all along until now. Let me just try and explain what I just learned in case it helps clarify for someone else.

I think everyone is agreed that the member "owns" both their fraction of the aircraft and their fraction of the kitty. The distinction is: are the two things separable? If the member sells their share of the aircraft, must their share of the kitty be included in that sale, or can they keep their share of the kitty, extracting that as cash for themselves, while selling their share of the aircraft without that part of the kitty to someone else (whether that's someone new buying in or the rest of the group)?

I didn't understand that was the distinction that was being made. It's not the value of things that's in doubt here; it's the separability.

I would say that it makes no sense to separate the kitty any more than it makes sense to do that when not leaving the group. It wouldn't be reasonable to demand your fraction of the kitty randomly unless everyone agreed to reduce the kitty equally, so similarly it wouldn't be reasonable to demand this when selling up.

Not having had any experience here, I would hope that this inseparability is part of the group rules.