Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1873052
Mz Hedy wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:
... that is not affordable flying in my book. And you're still limited to two seats and daytime vfr...


Give it 5 or 10 years...

:roll:


and it doesn't mean the cheaper, lighter, models will suddenly vanish from the market either.
#1873086
I don't think there is a great demand at all for 600kg new factory aircraft at all due to the huge price hikes of recent years and low affordability options at this end of the new market in the UK. I think there is a lot hype currently about the advantages of a 600 kg aircraft and how big this market is.
Lots of manufacturers/dealers quote basic spec machines at sub £100k without Vat but when you look into it £100k doesn't buy you much and there are not many people around with £150k plus to spend on a new small aircraft.
patowalker liked this
#1873149
I suspect you're right Shoestring. Some of the very attractive looking and performing 600kg machines do come with a hefty price tag. Who will buy these beautiful machines? I'm really not sure. Even with 600kg the useful load can be limiting and of course we are still talking VFR.

The point of my post on the differences training and the French rejection of the 600kg class, was based on more than a suspicion that the FFPULM had a level of insight which meant they decided to reject the 600kg class on the basis they either suspect or possibly even knew that the EASA 'deadhand' approach (differences training for every difference!) would likely accompany it.

That seems to be what has happened and so their stance seems to be validated. How the BMAA system will adapt to providing all of this differences stuff is likely to be something of a challenge.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1873200
PeteM wrote:The point of my post on the differences training and the French rejection of the 600kg class, was based on more than a suspicion that the FFPULM had a level of insight which meant they decided to reject the 600kg class on the basis they either suspect or possibly even knew that the EASA 'deadhand' approach (differences training for every difference!) would likely accompany it.

That seems to be what has happened and so their stance seems to be validated.


Nothing to do with training at all, the FFPLUM is determined to protect the French 'declarative' system, whereby manufacturers declare their ULM to be airworthy and this is sufficient to satisfy the regulator. Any increase in weights beyond those negotiated with the DGAC would have resulted in airworthiness regulation.
https://www.bmaa.org/files/french_regulations_2019.pdf
Ibra, russp liked this
User avatar
By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1873268
^^^what @patowalker says^^^
Its all about that 450kg weight limit in France.

I recall reading about some study wrt mass to 3rd party damage ratio, and thats why the 450kg limit is so rigid in France, no idea if hearsay or fact, but Ive read it and its been mentioned to me more than once too.

Regards, SD..
#1873281
Sooty25 wrote:
Mz Hedy wrote:
lobstaboy wrote:
... that is not affordable flying in my book. And you're still limited to two seats and daytime vfr...


Give it 5 or 10 years...

:roll:


and it doesn't mean the cheaper, lighter, models will suddenly vanish from the market either.


Well that's exactly what did happen when the previous weight limit increase occurred (390 to 450kgs).
#1873326
Referring back to @Genghis the Engineer 's OP. I've been in touch with the BMAA and they seem to think (the intent was) that the requirements in sub-para (e) - the differences training - only applied to microlights in the new 450-600 (etc) kg range.

I said I didn't read it like that. They're going to get back.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1873344
This is how the updated version reads. It is clear to me that the differences training only applies to microlights heavier than 475/495kg. However, English is not my firt language..

Microlight class rating

(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) to (6) and to the conditions of the licence in which it is included, a microlight class rating entitles the holder to act as pilot in command of any microlight aeroplane.

(2) If the current certificate of revalidation for the rating is endorsed “single seat only” the holder is only entitled to act as pilot in command of any single seat microlight aeroplane.

(3) If the aeroplane—

(a)has three axis controls and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with flexwing or weightshift controls;

(b)flexwing or weightshift controls and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with three axis controls;

(c) has a maximum take-off mass of more than 475kg (or more than 495kg if the aeroplane is an amphibian or floatplane) and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in a microlight aeroplane with a maximum take-off mass of 475kg or less (or 495kg or less if the aeroplane is an amphibian or floatplane);

(d)has a maximum take-off mass of 600kg or less (or 650kg or less if the aeroplane is an amphibian or floatplane) and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in aeroplanes with a maximum take-off mass of more than 600kg (or more than 650kg if the aeroplane is an amphibian or floatplane);

(e)is fitted with—
(i)a tricycle undercarriage;
(ii)a tailwheel;
(iii)a supercharger or turbo-charger;
(iv)a variable pitch propeller;
(v)one or more Electronic Flight Information Systems;
(vi)an autopilot system;
(vii)more than one engine; or
(viii)an electric engine,
and the holder does not have training or experience in aeroplanes with such fitted features; or

(f)has a maximum continuous cruising speed in excess of 140 knots indicated airspeed and the holder does not have experience in aeroplanes capable of that speed, before exercising the privileges of the rating the holder must complete appropriate differences training.

(4) The differences training mentioned in paragraph (3) must be given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the aeroplane on which the training is being given, recorded in the holder’s personal flying logbook and endorsed and signed by the instructor conducting the training.

(5) Where the aeroplane is to be operated from water during take-off and landing, before exercising the privileges of the rating the holder must—

(a)complete appropriate differences training; and

(b)attain a pass in the Private or Professional Seamanship examination.

(6) The differences training mentioned in paragraph (5) must be given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the aeroplane on which the training is being given, recorded in the holder’s personal flying logbook and endorsed and signed by the instructor conducting the training.
By patowalker
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1873346
skydriller wrote:^^^what @patowalker says^^^
Its all about that 450kg weight limit in France.

I recall reading about some study wrt mass to 3rd party damage ratio, and thats why the 450kg limit is so rigid in France, no idea if hearsay or fact, but Ive read it and its been mentioned to me more than once too.

Regards, SD..


Not so rigid. :D https://www.ecologie.gouv.fr/sites/defa ... limits.pdf
skydriller liked this
#1873350
patowalker wrote:This is how the updated version reads. It is clear to me that the differences training only applies to microlights heavier than 475/495kg. However, English is not my firt language..

Microlight class rating

(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) to (6) and to the conditions of the licence in which it is included, a microlight class rating entitles the holder to act as pilot in command of any microlight aeroplane.

(2) If the current certificate of revalidation for the rating is endorsed “single seat only” the holder is only entitled to act as pilot in command of any single seat microlight aeroplane.

(3) If the aeroplane—

(a)has three axis controls and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with flexwing or weightshift controls;

(b)flexwing or weightshift controls and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in an aeroplane with three axis controls;

(c) has a maximum take-off mass of more than 475kg (or more than 495kg if the aeroplane is an amphibian or floatplane) and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in a microlight aeroplane with a maximum take-off mass of 475kg or less (or 495kg or less if the aeroplane is an amphibian or floatplane);

(d)has a maximum take-off mass of 600kg or less (or 650kg or less if the aeroplane is an amphibian or floatplane) and the holder’s previous training and experience has only been in aeroplanes with a maximum take-off mass of more than 600kg (or more than 650kg if the aeroplane is an amphibian or floatplane);

(e)is fitted with—
(i)a tricycle undercarriage;
(ii)a tailwheel;
(iii)a supercharger or turbo-charger;
(iv)a variable pitch propeller;
(v)one or more Electronic Flight Information Systems;
(vi)an autopilot system;
(vii)more than one engine; or
(viii)an electric engine,
and the holder does not have training or experience in aeroplanes with such fitted features; or

(f)has a maximum continuous cruising speed in excess of 140 knots indicated airspeed and the holder does not have experience in aeroplanes capable of that speed, before exercising the privileges of the rating the holder must complete appropriate differences training.

(4) The differences training mentioned in paragraph (3) must be given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the aeroplane on which the training is being given, recorded in the holder’s personal flying logbook and endorsed and signed by the instructor conducting the training.

(5) Where the aeroplane is to be operated from water during take-off and landing, before exercising the privileges of the rating the holder must—

(a)complete appropriate differences training; and

(b)attain a pass in the Private or Professional Seamanship examination.

(6) The differences training mentioned in paragraph (5) must be given by a flight instructor entitled to instruct on the aeroplane on which the training is being given, recorded in the holder’s personal flying logbook and endorsed and signed by the instructor conducting the training.


My reading is that because the sub paras under (3) have ;or
at the end of (3)(e) this means that each of the sub paras is stand alone. In other words, for example, you can see that a reading of
"If the aeroplane is fitted with a tricycle undercarriage before exercising the privileges of the rating... ...differences training... etc."
is what it says - nowhere does it say this is only for 450-600kg (which is a separate thing).

(If the "or" were replaced by "and" then it would be different)

Odd though - I read it that you can go up to 475kg without differences training...

If the intended law was to be that everything lighter than 450kg stays as it was this is very poor drafting. Just like the farrago a while back over the PMD and the medical requirements under 2000kg.

Sigh...
User avatar
By russp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1873449
I'm not really sure I see the problem here - it's only going to affect a tiny amount of flyers in the under 475Kg category and only when they move to a new aircraft and most if them will simply tie it in with their biennial flight with an instructor. For those moving to faster and more complex heavier machines it's surely just very sensible and hardly onerous .. most (with the possible exception of tricycle to tailwheel) will be accomplished well within an hour and that hour still counts as the biennial instructor hour.
#1873474
An SEP FI can currently teach Microlights anyway, no need to have differences training. Quite a few do


I was quite surprised to read this statement although I could quite believe it to be true.

The microlight syllabus (practical and theory) differs significantly from the LAPL/PPL.

Could someone point to the regulations that permit Part-FCL SEP rating holders to fly microlights and FIs to instruct in them without any formal differences training. I presume the microlight class rating refers only to the NPPL(M) because I have not heard of such as thing available directly on a Part FCL licence.
#1873486
DavidC wrote:Could someone point to the regulations that permit Part-FCL SEP rating holders to fly microlights and FIs to instruct in them without any formal differences training. I presume the microlight class rating refers only to the NPPL(M) because I have not heard of such as thing available directly on a Part FCL licence.


You can fly Microlights with SEP and difference training in your logbook, that is how you can be PIC

For instruction, FI/CRI in land classes you only have SE class & ME class privileges (let’s ignore TRIs and SEP(Sea) ), if you have 15h PIC in a class with the mandatory RHS checkout by another qualified FI/CRI, why you can’t teach on it? on variants nothing is required aside from being able to act as PIC and advised to have a checkout while sitting in RHS…

As I understand Microlight, SLMG, SSEA, SEP(Land), SET, TMG…teaching privileges are embedded in Part FCL licence FI/SE & CRI/SE

Otherwise, I can’t see how Part-FCL instructor can teach someone with NPPL/SSEA in C150? as they don’t have SSEA on their FCL papers (replace NPPL/SSEA with NPPL/M or LAPL which has SEP/TMG privileges without having Class Ratings)


This is on legal basis for instruction, if you are flying in Pitts or C42 with an FCL instructor, don’t worry he probably has thousands hours PIC and hundreds hours teaching on them :wink:


FCL.905.CRI CRI – Privileges and conditions
(b) The privileges of a CRI are restricted to the class or type of aeroplane in which the instructor assessment of competence was taken. The privileges of the CRI shall be extended to further classes or types when the CRI has completed, within the last 12 months:
(1) 15 hours flight time as PIC on aeroplanes of the applicable class or type of
aeroplane;
(2) one training flight from the right hand seat under the supervision of another CRI or FI qualified for that class or type occupying the other pilot’s seat.
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User avatar
By VRB_20kt
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1873499
As @lbra points out, differences training is required for an SEP to fly a microlight. But given that eg the EV97 and EV97A are near identical, that training could be very short indeed.

What would you say are the significant differences between microlight and PPL training?
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