Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1872719
VRB_20kt wrote:
Presumably an SEP FI can do microlight differences and then teach microlights.



An SEP FI can currently teach Microlights anyway, no need to have differences training. Quite a few do. Of these, a goodly proportion have no idea about how to fly safely and well an aeroplane with much lower inertia than they are used to, with a low wing loading and with an engine that really will dump you into a field.
In my time as a microlight examiner the only students I had to fail had been taught by SEP FIs.
The BMAA training committee were irritated by their inability to make sure these students were taught to the microlight syllabus, but couldn't do anything about it.
I say again, you can kiss goodbye to low cost aviation - in a few years all microlight training will be concentrated at a few big schools and all sales of new aeroplanes will be at 600kg.
#1872721
MattL wrote:@lobstaboy differences would probably be a one off trip and ground briefing, probably take half a day max. You think microlight instructors will give up rather than do that?

They could have gone the ‘make everyone get an SSEA rating’ route with all this, I wouldn’t knock it if I was a microlighter


But it's also access to the heavier aeroplane to train on.

And personally I think we should have gone 'make everyone get an SSEA rating' route. As was pointed out above, this is what is happening in France. What we are doing is driven solely by a few UK importers who want to sell the heavier aeroplanes. Tail wagging the dog.
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872725
An SEP FI can currently teach Microlights anyway, no need to have differences training.


Negative, differences is required - but you're quite right that many SEP FIs and CRIs do instruct, quite legally, on microlights having received that training or been grandfathered it from having been a microlight pilot prior.

However, I agree totally that many of these have done the absolute minimum, don't understand low inertia aircraft, have probably never flown anything with a 2-stroke engine, are teaching SEP checks instead of the practices in the BMAA instructor and examiner guide. This is a problem, and will not go away.

An SEP FI or CRI with 3-or-4-figure hours across multiple microlight types should be no concern to anybody. One who has done the absolute minimum to get differences training, then teaches as if microlights are simply Cessnas with a different badge on should be a concern to all of us.

After all, you teach somebody to fly a C150 on the basis that they may shortly fly an Arrow, so you should teach somebody to fly an EV97 on the basis that they may shortly fly an MW5.

G
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#1872727
@Genghis the Engineer I think I disagree - it feels to me as if the new category is a convergence between the two regimes/ethos etc.. SEP instructors can learn stuff from microlight instructors, and microlight instructors can learn stuff from SEP instructors. If we try and perpetuate segregation and some of the associated attitudes around I fear we will have lost a real opportunity?
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By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872729
Of course pilots, particularly professional pilots, in the various categories of aircraft can, and should, learn from each other.

But where does replicating a set of sometimes costly legal requirements - that so far as I know has very little real safety justification - from one category to another, add to anybody's learning? If anything, it will encourage minimum-standard box-ticking, rather than genuine deeper understanding of the aeroplanes people are flying.

G
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By russp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872762
lobstaboy wrote:. What we are doing is driven solely by a few UK importers who want to sell the heavier aeroplanes. Tail wagging the dog.


Disagree with this completely - it's driven by a huge demand for factory built practical modern two seat machines operated under the permit system. Not everyone wants to home build their aircraft - the idea that insisting these aircraft are built in people's garages is somehow safer than factory built aircraft is preposterous. That it's become microlights rather than a new LSA category is entirely down to the legal framework in the UK.
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#1872774
russp wrote: Not everyone wants to home build their aircraft - the idea that insisting these aircraft are built in people's garages is somehow safer than factory built aircraft is preposterous.


Where did that come from? Not sure that's relevant to what's going on at all. Would you mind explaining your point in more detail?
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By russp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872783
lobstaboy wrote:
russp wrote: Not everyone wants to home build their aircraft - the idea that insisting these aircraft are built in people's garages is somehow safer than factory built aircraft is preposterous.


Where did that come from? Not sure that's relevant to what's going on at all. Would you mind explaining your point in more detail?


Currently in the UK (unlike most of the rest of the world) the only way to get a new 600Kg permit aircraft is to home build it (because apparently someone decided that it's safer than allowing factory built aircraft that don't have a CoA) .. the new 600Kg microlight category will enable us to buy those aircraft factory built. There is a huge demand for these aircraft and the move to 600Kg is all about providing UK pilots access to aircraft that simply weren't available at all previously (Blackshark Prime) or that were required to be home built (Aeroprakt Vixen/Sting Anything).
#1872805
@russp Oh OK, I see now - I hadn't looked at it from that point of view - that's a good point.
Nevertheless the very negative consequences that I keep banging on about will happen and will impact on folk who wish to fly something on a microlight licence that is not a 600kg permit aeroplane, or train those folk.
#1872954
classgee wrote:So what are all these new 600kg aircraft? Are there some prime contenders, and how much will they cost... Or is that on for its own thread, or a magazine article I have probably missed.


Well here's one. From 125k euro apparently
https://afors.com/aircraftView/48423

Prime looks to be c. 210k dollars, and Vixxen c. 135k dollars.

I rest my case - that is not affordable flying in my book. And you're still limited to two seats and daytime vfr...
Last edited by lobstaboy on Mon Sep 27, 2021 8:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By russp
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872965
classgee wrote:So what are all these new 600kg aircraft? Are there some prime contenders, and how much will they cost... Or is that on for its own thread, or a magazine article I have probably missed.


https://www.quizaero.co.uk/post/2018/04 ... opts-600kg

Prices from £50k for a skyranger right up to £200k for the fully kitted out 200mph machines with middle of the road stuff like CTSW / Aeroprakt / Eurostar etc at £100 - 130k ish
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