Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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By James Chan
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872261
I never know why flying over busy areas in a sensible manner (but not necessarily land-clear) is any more "reckless" than people driving in a sensible manner on a road placed right next to houses. This can be up to 50mph in some places.

Does a car driver doubt their ability to drive competently?
Do car maintenance and service companies fear their annual servicing and repair work isn't good enough?
Does the DVLA fear they haven't defined the minimal road safety standards for cars and oversee standards of safety for MOTs in garages?

Similar for aircraft:

Does the CAA doubt their ability to certify reliable aircraft and oversee maintenance organisations?
Does the engineering/maintenance company doubt their ability to service and fix faults in an aircraft?
Does the pilot doubt their ability to run pre-flight checks and fly a plane properly?

Obviously tragic unforeseen problems can and do happen, and if so and damage occurs then that's what insurance companies are there for.
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By Big Dex
#1872265
I do like these frequent reminders of why my aircraft is blocked from nearly all tracking sites. I don’t believe I fly irresponsibly and certainly not illegally, but if that’s found to be incorrect, better not to have it highlighted and tried on a public forum.
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User avatar
By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872279
R160 = Choppers only so doesnt apply to SEP
R 158 = North of the river to 1400ft
R157 = West to hyde park to 1400ft
R159 = East over Isle if dogs to 1400ft
Currently a filming NOTAM to 2100ft but its a request.

So if they clear you in the class D CTR at say 1500 to 2500ft??

Can you or cant you??

Asking for a friend... :wink:
By Ibra
#1872283
skydriller wrote:R160 = Choppers only so doesnt apply to SEP
R 158 = North of the river to 1400ft
R157 = West to hyde park to 1400ft
R159 = East over Isle if dogs to 1400ft
Currently a filming NOTAM to 2100ft but its a request.

So if they clear you in the class D CTR at say 1500 to 2500ft??

Can you or cant you??

Asking for a friend... :wink:


They don’t clear 1500ft-2500ft VFR in that corner probably due to Heathrow? between Canary Wharf and Vauxhall Bridge it’s likely max 1400ft VFR (keep away laterally from Shard :lol: ), east of Canary Wharf you get max 2kft if Heathrow are on 27, maybe less if they are on 09, I doubt one can go west of Vauxhall Bridge unless following Thames river at 500ft agl?

If they clear you it’s up to you to take it, if you are IFR in IMC in SEP to Biggin via North-West on vectors or directs and you can’t see the ground, I suggest you take it :lol: , if you are VFR on own navigation with “London in-sight” you friend will find it hard to debate :twisted:
By Big Dex
#1872311
marioair wrote:Let's all hide from scrutiny, peer-reviewed judgement and open debate.


Yes, that’s exactly it. I don’t wish to be scrutinised, peer-reviewed or judged by the general public.
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By AlanM
#1872320
marioair wrote:Very enlightened. If you need help extracting your head from your x don’t call your peers.


Dude - you may want to reflect on the facts. You took a screen grab of an aircraft with the route and it’s level, callsign, type, time etc and brought it to everyone’s attention.

If you were genuinely looking to start an intelligent discussion or gain some lesson learning a generic question may have been more appropriate.

Your post had no text even - just a 3 word Topic Title.

Just a thought
User avatar
By marioair
#1872321
Ok, fairs fair, my response to @Big Dex was inappropriate.

We (GA pilots ) are a small community. We often find it easy to throw stones at other communities, groups but we need to hold up a mirror.
We need to stop viewing ourselves as priveleged, elite, beyond reproach. We often see big ego's in our midst.
A little accident, even if not "illegal" but "unwise" hurts as all.

I genuinely do not fear an open debate if I'm challenged on something, in a constructive manner. Whilst the original post didnt pose a question in next to the picutre, the title should have made it clear i was questioning said aicrafts PIC intpretation of "land clear".

If we cannot challenge our peers then we are doing a dis-service to all of us

/end rant
User avatar
By Cookie
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872326
@marioair might I suggest you remove the picture and replace with a question?

More information can be found in UK AIP ENR 1.1, para 4.1.7.

Cookie
Last edited by Cookie on Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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User avatar
By marioair
#1872327
Cookie wrote:UK AIP ENR 1.1, para 4.1.7.

Cookie


Thanks @Cookie

4.1.7 Single-Engine Fixed Wing Aircraft Over Central London
4.1.7.1 With the exception of the Northolt RMA (see AD 2.EGWU AD 2.17) and the Local Flying Areas at Denham and Brooklands (see AD 2.EGLL AD 2.22), NSF or ENSF permissions will not be granted to single-engine fixed wing aircraft requesting to operate within those parts of the London and London City Control Zones between a North-South line extending through the LON VOR and a North-South line extending through the LCY NDB. In accordance with a directive from the CAA Safety and Airspace Regulation Group (SARG), applications which fall within the above criteria will be refused upon application to the NSF Coordinator due to the inability of such aircraft, in the view of the CAA, to be able to comply with SERA.3105 Minimum Heights.


SERA.3105 Minimum heights
Regulation (EU) No 923/2012
Except when necessary for take-off or landing, or except by permission from the competent authority,
aircraft shall not be flown over the congested areas of cities, towns or settlements or over an openair assembly of persons, unless at such a height as will permit, in the event of an emergency arising, a
landing to be made without undue hazard to persons or property on the surface. The minimum heights
for VFR flights shall be those specified in SERA.5005(f) and minimum levels for IFR flights shall be those
specified in SERA.5015(b).


So either ATC messed up and permitted the flight incorrectly or the pilot had a valid reason.
User avatar
By Dave W
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1872328
UK AIP ENR 1.1 wrote:4.1.7 Single-Engine Fixed Wing Aircraft Over Central London

4.1.7.1 With the exception of the Northolt RMA and the Local Flying Areas at Denham and Brooklands (see AD 2.EGLL AD 2.22), NSF or ENSF permissions will not be granted to single-engine fixed wing aircraft requesting to operate within those parts of the London and London City Control Zones between a North-South line extending through the LON VOR and a North-South line extending through the LCY NDB. In accordance with a directive from the CAA Safety and Airspace Regulation Group (SARG), applications which fall within the above criteria will be refused upon application to the NSF Coordinator due to the inability of such aircraft, in the view of the CAA, to be able to comply with SERA.3105 Minimum Heights.


Pretty sure @Cookie has made that same point to us here before - not that long ago.
By AlanM
#1872329
marioair wrote:So either ATC messed up and permitted the flight incorrectly or the pilot had a valid reason.


How have ATC messed up?
What is a valid reason (in your opinion)?

I don’t think that anyone would disagree with your comments about the GA world needing to look inwardly more often and accept errors…… but a witch hunt by people, who were probably not there and have no real understanding of how that sector operates is not at all helpful.

We redact airlines and controllers from incidents and reports.
Last edited by AlanM on Fri Sep 24, 2021 6:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Ibra
#1872330
Cookie wrote:@marioair might I suggest you remove the picture and replace with a question?

More information can be found in UK AIP ENR 1.1, para 4.1.7.

Cookie


Aren’t VFR transits in CTR Standard Flights? (arial filming, displays, formation, orbiting for news coverage, surveys, even instruction in CTR could naturally fall under NSF, for these one may need to turn up with a submission & reference number, for VFR transit between two airfields, I doubt this falls under NSF?)

4.1 Non-Standard Flights (NSFs) in Controlled Airspace
4.1.1 A Non-Standard Flight (NSF) in Controlled Airspace is an aerial task that may not necessarily follow published routes or notified procedures; a formation flight of civil aircraft other than for VFR transit of CTA/CTR/TMA; or flights to and from a temporary landing site for multiple short term operations

https://nsf.nats.aero/
https://nsf.nats.aero/commercial-aircraft/
Last edited by Ibra on Fri Sep 24, 2021 7:09 pm, edited 7 times in total.