Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871305
Is there anywhere I can find out how many movements (inbounds and outbounds) there were yesterday at Manchester and Birmingham?

I'd be interested to make some comparisons, as Birmingham were very considerably more accommodating with clearances than Manchester on my way to Barton and back yesterday.

I was only on the respective radar frequencies so all I heard was inbounds getting vectored to the ILS but very subjectively it seemed as if Birmingham was the busier.

Also, please could someone remind me where that 'denial of access to airspace' form is? I may file a report depending on how busy it actually was.

It wasn't quite "sod off and use the low level route", but it wasn't all that far off.

Thanks in advance for any pointers.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871308
And another thing... that feels like a trend....

Clearances given are often not remotely as what I'll call 'good' as they could be. For example, I'm often offered 'not above 2000 feet' crossing the F'boro zone. Which is fairly rubbish from a glide clear perspective in that area, especially if you 'take 2'. Invariably I ask for higher and get 'not above 2400 feet' - so much so that I've started requesting that with the transit request and apart from once when I had to orbit for an inbound that I couldn't see yet, they've offered it straight away.

And yesterday, outbound, Manchester initially gave me 'not above 1000 feet' from Sandbach to Thelwall, which was improved to 'not above 1500 feet' when I said I'd take the LLR if 1000' was the highest available.

I had a good look up the extended centreline as I went past, and there weren't exactly hordes of departures in the 23 climb out. And not a peep on my SkyEcho which usually spots CAT quite well.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871319
CloudHound wrote:What was your planned route through MAN airspace?

Image
I guess I might have had more luck directly through the overhead but given the 'Barton situation' and the fact that it was going to be busy there as it was a flyin, I wanted to give myself a little breathing space for the change to the Barton frequency.

I didn't mind not above 1500' for Sandbach to Thelwall - better than the LLR and less built up.

But I had to take the LLR on the way back.
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By Tall_Guy_In_a_PA28
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871321
TopCat wrote:Is there anywhere I can find out how many movements (inbounds and outbounds) there were yesterday at Manchester and Birmingham?


As an approximation you could look at the airport's website departures / arrivals for next Saturday as the schedule does not change much week to week (major Covid rule changes excepted). I just had a look at Manchester and it is busier than I expected, certainly busier than Gatwick which I live close to.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871326
Tall_Guy_In_a_PA28 wrote:
TopCat wrote:Is there anywhere I can find out how many movements (inbounds and outbounds) there were yesterday at Manchester and Birmingham?


As an approximation you could look at the airport's website departures / arrivals for next Saturday as the schedule does not change much week to week (major Covid rule changes excepted). I just had a look at Manchester and it is busier than I expected, certainly busier than Gatwick which I live close to.

Good idea.

Yes, about one every 5 minutes pretty much all afternoon. That's quite a bit more than I thought too.

In fairness, northbound I was able to call quite early, whereas southbound, outbound from Barton, it's pretty much either a clearance 'right now' or it's the LLR. So I guess they had less flexibility.

"G-XXXX just departed Barton southbound request transit Thelwall to Sandbach"
"Can't you take the LLR?"

... was a bit short, I thought :)

From the centre of the MAN ATZ to the line from Sandbach to Thelwall is 7.2nm. Is it really hard to separate IFR outbounds from something west of that line below 1500'?

It's about 6.3nm I suppose if they're using 23L for departures, but still...
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871332
Dominie wrote:
TopCat wrote:Also, please could someone remind me where that 'denial of access to airspace' form is? I may file a report depending on how busy it actually was.

This one?
https://apply.caa.co.uk/CAAPortal/servl ... =fcs1521v2

Well I thought it was, at first glance, but it explicitly excludes access issues.

ETA...

However, that was very helpful, as it includes a link to the one I was thinking of...

https://apply.caa.co.uk/CAAPortal/servl ... de=fcs1522

Thank you!
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871346
My mind boggles a little bit. If going to/from Barton from/to the south, the LLR is easy, it's there, and you don't have to make huge altitude changes to use it as you're landing/taking off right next to it. For the routing above, it's a tiny little bit of extra flying, and in reality is possibly going to be less time in the air than holding waiting to cross the climbout between flights.

With GPS navigation these days, it's simplicity itself to follow.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871352
Paul_Sengupta wrote:If going to/from Barton from/to the south, the LLR is easy, it's there, and you don't have to make huge altitude changes to use it as you're landing/taking off right next to it. For the routing above, it's a tiny little bit of extra flying, and in reality is possibly going to be less time in the air than holding waiting to cross the climbout between flights.

With GPS navigation these days, it's simplicity itself to follow.

Of course, no argument with any of the above.

It's even the case that by leaving the LLR at the Thelwall viaduct you can avoid the glide clear issues of Wigan and Warrington.

But that creates narrow pinch points, and coupled with that and the lack of altitude, I'd rather go through the neighbouring CAS higher if possible, and over more open land. Obviously if that means orbiting for ages it's not such a good option.

If going further north, I certainly don't like flying over Wigan at 1200', and although in theory you could sneak through west of the M6/A58, again it's a very narrow pinch point.

I don't know enough about the SIDs and STARs for Liverpool and Manchester, but the fact that the 2000' boundary exists that runs SW-NE just south of Barton suggests to me that the LLR's max 1300' doesn't really have to extend any further north than the M62.
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871359
CloudHound wrote:Next time inbound try Congleton or Mac South VRPs > landing runway threshold > overhead Barton at (if poss) 2500’.

Yes, in retrospect I agree. I was happy with 'not above 1500' on the way in, although I guess I might have just been lucky to get that.
#1871364
Paul_Sengupta wrote:My mind boggles a little bit.

Mine too.

Let's make all controlled airspace class A. VFR flyers are flying for pleasure so they won't mind flying longer.

We need to stop self censoring ourselves. We need to keep the ANSPs and the CAA on their toes.
Every ACPs we have nice sounding bits saying: it's only class D, it will be no problem to give you transit.
It's only class D, there is no separation requirement beween VFR and IFR.

But then in practice, we get: Oh, I'm bit busy. Oh, I don't like to enter strips in the new software. Oh I need to procedurally deconflict you against an unlikely go-around.

So we need to keep asking for transit and report refusal or delay in all cases except a few (like they are dealing with an emergency)
TopCat, skydriller, PA28 liked this