Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
By chevvron
#1871421
rusty eagle wrote:Thanks for all the comments, but to understand this better, suppose I want to fly from Great Oakley to Wallis International. A straight line would take me over Wattisham, Lakenheath/Mildenhall. If I contacted Wattisham on such a flight would they notify Lakenheath/Mildenhall on my behalf?

Wattisham MATZ inoperative at weekends but there might be locally based a/c operating in the vicinity so as with all Mil airfields, make a blind call and avoid the ATZ.
#1871423
Thanks all, I value these comments from practical experience. Sometimes it's very difficult to find this info and I do believe there's no such thing as a stupid question. And, having flown a lot nordo, please define free call. I assume it means change to the appropriate frequency and make your own contact?
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871429
‘Free call’ as you suggest means just dialling up the appropriate frequency ten miles/five milutes out :ie it’s the opposite of a formal radio‘ handover’

‘Wattisham approach G-xxxc, for MATZ penetration ‘
‘ G-xxxx squawk zzzz and pass your message ,
You know the stuff .

As soon as you are clear of Watt MATZ
‘ Watt Appr G-xxxx clear of your MATZ changing to Lakenheath 128.900’

Then repeat gist of above to Lakenheath . :wink:

If it’s a weekend Wattisham maybe gliding Call on their usual frequency. You may get a reply from ‘ Anglia base’ or you may get nothing . If you get nothing call twice then announce your intentions to. ‘Wattisham traffic’ but remain clear of ATZ .

Lakenheath will be there.
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By JAFO
#1871451
@rusty eagle - if I could fit in your aeroplane I'd offer to come along as radio operator :wink:

You wouldn't need me, though, as they are all wonderfully helpful people although the Americans will speak quickly and, regardless of what service you've been in receipt of, will end your time with them with the single word: RADARSERVICETERMINATEDGOODDAY.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871455
Yep: They do tend to dump you the minute you leave their CMATZ with a cheery 'radarserviceterminatedsquawkseventhousandfrequencychangeapprovedhaveaniceday, 'whereas Watt will , depending on which direction I'm travelling , see me all the way back to the strip or south to Southend's zone...... :wink:
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#1873982
welkyboy wrote:Civil aircraft don’t need a clearance to transit a MATZ !


I refer the poster to my little 'dit' post #1718310 dated 4 Sep 19 as to the potential ramifications of not requesting a MATZ penetration.

Please don't be THAT GUY!

(I think the 'confusion' about the 'C' wrt CMATZ is due to the fact that transit through the Combined MATZ is conducted on the Clutch QFE - but lets not open that particular bag 'o bolts again!)
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1873992
Ophelia Gently wrote:I refer the poster to my little 'dit' post #1718310 dated 4 Sep 19 as to the potential ramifications of not requesting a MATZ penetration.


Well, if you were to actually quote yourself I might have a scooby what you're on about :wink:
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By RisePilot
#1873994
PeteSpencer wrote:Yep: They do tend to dump you the minute you leave their CMATZ with a cheery 'radarserviceterminatedsquawkseventhousandfrequencychangeapprovedhaveaniceday, 'whereas Watt will , depending on which direction I'm travelling , see me all the way back to the strip or south to Southend's zone...... :wink:


I prefer to get rid them quickly, as their radio chatter keeps cutting out my Spotify playlist going through my audio panel. :D
#1874004
skydriller wrote:
Ophelia Gently wrote:I refer the poster to my little 'dit' post #1718310 dated 4 Sep 19 as to the potential ramifications of not requesting a MATZ penetration.


Well, if you were to actually quote yourself I might have a scooby what you're on about :wink:


Sorry, but it was a long post and I didn't want to take up everyone's bandwidth with repetition, hoping the cross reference would suffice! But you asked for it........

"H & S Warning - long post!

Back in the day, we just used to luuuurrve you – “I know my rights” - guys. Whereas no-one contests that MATZs are not applicable to civilian operators you may wish to consider the impact your exercising your legal right has on other aviators that want to share the skies – equitably and safely – with you. The following is a digest of an occasion that happened on my watch ‘once upon a time’:

Background situation: Busy flying training unit that pumped out lots of sorties per day; unit used to host regular Harrier detachments from the OCU to simulate deployment to forward operating bases – with whose operating procedures the tyro Harrier pilot would not be intimately familiar - and to operate closer to Spadeadam Range to maximise the unique training opportunities there, which was the focal point of the OCU course at that particular part of the syllabus.

Weather: from memory – Vis: between 3.7 to 5Km, cloudbase: solid at 1500ft, few below but lots scudding through in a fresh wind. In Military parlance, Colour Code Green – that awkward situation between ‘dodgy’ VFR and ‘fuel impacting/sortie length curtailing’ IFR operations.

Four Harriers airborne, (we’ll call them Gold Section) expected back imminently from Spade. (BTW, although the Lightning was the legendary ‘short-endurance’ jet, it was positively long-legged in comparison with the Harrier, that carried less fuel in toto than a B747 uses for start-up taxy and take-off.)

“Gold section, check”

“2”, “3”, “4 – Bingo minus fuel, last bounce has hauled off”

“EG@@ Director, Gold Section on handover heading 120, FL 240 for recovery.”

Director (me): “Gold, squawk XXXX, weather (passed).”

Gold Ldr: “Director, Gold for a 4-ship split for individual GCAs; recovery order, 4, 2, 3, Ldr.

Dir: “Gold identified, radar advisory (long and involved instructions to effect 4-ship split for individual PARs – establish vertical separation, identify individual aircraft then turn to effect lateral separation whilst establishing the required landing sequence, during which…)”

Gold 4: “Gold 4 – fuel priority.”

Get on with the job, coordinating cruise decent through neighbouring airfields’ patterns and coordinating separation with EG## airfield’s LARS transits and EG@@ own LARS and departure traffic. Get the sequence nicely forming and turning Gold 4 in no.1 onto base leg for a 6 Nm final when I notice a non-squawking primary only return trundling – slowly - south to north that’s going to cross the centreline 4 nms out; obviously no altitude info. Call Zone: not working it, not working tower (in case of direct VFR low level joiner) either. Gold 4 now on 40 deg leg toward final at 1500ft (Glidepath intercept height); I have to call it:

Dir: “Gold 4, traffic 10 o’clock, approaching 5 miles, if not sighted turn right heading ABC.”

G4: “Gold 4, in cloud, traffic not sighted, fuel priority, request traffic information.”

(vectors/descent to others in Gold section in the meantime, by-the-by)

At this stage, due to the offset scan split of the PAR on this particular runway, there appears on the edge of the scan the ‘perfectly entitled’ crosser, 4 miles out – outside the ATZ and VMC/VFR (clear of cloud and in sight of the surface) to be sure – showing on the PAR elevation screen AT 1200ft (3 deg glidepath at 318ft/NM – work it out!). The return eventually went right through the 3 deg glidepath.

Dir: “Gold 4 – AVOIDING ACTION turn right, right, heading (reciprocal to runway), previous traffic now showing on PAR at same height crossing left to right, climb report level 2000ft QFE (terrain).

G4: “Gold 4 turning. PAN, PAN, PAN, Gold 4 fuel critical, request short pattern circuit, must land off next approach.”

Dir: “Gold 4 Pan acknowledged. Gold 2 traffic (etc), similar height if not sighted turn left (etc)”

G2: “Gold 2 - not sighted, still in cloud turning left. Gold 2 now Fuel Priority.”

(coordinate like fury with EG@@ Zone ref the LARs transits she’s working that wouldn’t have been a factor if I hadn’t had to turn and climb towards her tracks as 5000ft Mode C didn’t now exist).

Dir: “Gold 3, to re-sequence (to provide a hole for Gold 4 to now go into) turn (whatever it was), stop descent (whatever, to provide vertical against Gold 4 and Gold 2 as he’s re-sequenced no2, in turn).

G3: “Gold 3, (reads back). Gold 3 now Fuel priority.”

Dir: “Gold 3, roger. Pan, Gold 4 turn right (back towards final). Gold 2, for sequencing turn (whatever it was), still no2 to Pan Gold 4.”

G2: “Gold 2 (reads back). PAN, PAN, PAN, Gold 2 now fuel critical.”

And so it went on………. they all got in, of course, ‘cos you didn’t read about 3 x Harrier tent pegs in the press the next day. And no-one died.

Meanwhile, in some clubhouse somewhere – with a nice bacon butty and cup of tea – “oh yeah, nice trip up; dead quiet. Nah, didn’t bother calling EG@@. As long as I’m VFR and clear of the their ATZ, what’s the point?"
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By Ibra
#1874021
Maybe I am not familiar with military separation/deconfliction standards or fuel requirements when operating under IFR or conducting PAR approach in Class G but if one is flying to say Exeter under IFR they would have enough fuel to go missed & hold for 45min as well as going to an alternate, are you saying the military can’t afford go-around on PAR fuelwise? you can go-missed for load of reasons other than conflicting traffic on approach

Or there is no prossibility to divert away from homebase? eject or land?

Also it takes 3min max from starting an approach to the ground, a slow VFR bimbling will not just pop-up on screen out of the blue they should be coming slowly unless they departed from under in a place nearby

Not sure what would change if VFR (or IFR) asks for MTAZ penetration, even if they talk ATC can’t vector them away in Class G, especially if weather is iffy, so the burden is on IFR to get his deconflcition but they may ask VFR for “coordination” though…


Personally, when I was given unknown traffic on ILS while in IMC (supposed to be VFR with no altitude reporting), I would just say roger and keep flying, the risk of hitting them in IMC is too low to bother with and if I become VMC, I can look for them
By callump
#1874108
Yeah but worse case scenario it takes a slow bimbler 10 minutes to cross the approach at 60kts ground speed (5nm is the deconfliction minima so the whole time it’s within 5nm either side of the approach, the approach is basically not useable). I’m not a mil controller but they have my sympathy because I get this situation with 737s etc and aircraft not speaking to anyone perfectly entitled to cross the approach in their own time. Yes civil aircraft have the luxury of being able to carry extra fuel, military aircraft do not.
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By skydriller
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1874120
MATZ are a bit of an anachronism. I dont actually remember being taught when I learnt to fly in the UK anything other than "you call up for permission the penetrate a MATZ". This seemed logical at the time and it was only later when I participated in flying forums that I realized the real status of MATZ - ie you didnt actually need permission!! By then I was living in France where military aerodromes have either restricted airspace or CTRs (or both), pretty much like everywhere else in Europe, and I was gobsmacked that fast pointy things in the UK operated into aerodromes just like GA does into small airfields.

Regards, SD..
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