Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1871737
Lefty wrote:Once - Just Once, Swanwick gave me a squawk and instructions where to join CAS at what time and what level.


Yeah, that doesn’t happen often/at all. The closest I sometimes get is an instruction to ROCAS, a squawk and a frequency to call when airborne and en route to a certain airways reporting point.
User avatar
By Genghis the Engineer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871745
chevvron wrote:
Genghis the Engineer wrote:No Nav charges below 2 tonnes thankfully.

I've had similar experiences to those described by others. Most recently flying around in circles over the Solent outbound Sandown - thankfully in VMC, because they'd lost my flight plan to Blackpool - and then was forced to try and get a 1969 Cherokee 140 up to FL90, as for some reason the FL70 in my original flight plan was deeply problematic (for reasons that were a complete mystery to me).

But, I've always got there eventually.

G

There are minimum cruising levels notified somewhere for each section of CTA and I believe the minimum for SAM northbound is FL90.

And yet my flightplan was automatically created and accepted originally...

G
#1871765
Lefty wrote:Once - Just Once, Swanwick gave me a squawk and instructions where to join CAS at what time and what level.


I bet that is rare, I head that once UK to France, not sure what was the trigger? maybe low traffic due to CV19 last summer as en-route frequency was very empt

The clearance (if such thing exist) is to join at X but ROCAS
#1871770
Ibra wrote:
The clearance (if such thing exist) is to join at X but ROCAS
[/quote]

Swanwick do not give clearances over the phone. They give Instructions.

At out place the instructions are ALWAYS to Remain outside Controlled Airspace and never to join.

Presumably they don’t want aircraft to enter CAS until they are both identified and two way. Especially near London where we are.

As I said before it seems to work fine. Once an aircraft is airborne he immediately chops to London and gets his climb.
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#1871772
Ok got it so you get “instruction to fly to X while ROCAS” on phone then hopefully once airborne you get “cleared to join” (of course once your transponder squawk & altimeter & flight plan are verified)

As I said I got “cleared to join CAS at LYD FL80, transponder, frequency” once (and only once) and just did as I was told and it worked neat, one single frequency & code from the apron until FIR boundary :thumleft:

PS: I can’t distinguish between instructions & clearances, what is the difference?
#1871800
G-JWTP wrote:
Ibra wrote:
PS: I can’t distinguish between instructions & clearances, what is the difference?


It's a bit like a ' Radar Control Service in Class D CAS'

A massive 'Dodge the issue' and fudge!

G-JWTP


It did ring like “they don’t give headings they give vectors”, so what?
#1871855
pullup wrote:Try thinking. Fly Heading 240...Climb Flight Level 90...Route
Direct to Clacton....Instructions

Cleared Take off. ..Cleared Land...Clear to join CAS.....Clearances.


It’s en-route ATC (TMA ATC), they can’t give clear to takeoff/land, the clearance to join CAS I agree

Once airborne in controlled airspace, they give instructions which are clearances as far as I am aware? there is no real distinction, other than the tactical nature of vectoring here and there, or you think there is difference being on instruction vs being on clearance under say lost comm? or instruction/clearance limit?

You get the same under IFR over Tampa or Paris, it’s 100% tactical with headings & levels also vectored all over the place, what you call series of instructions, they call it series of clearances…

I doubt there is a distinction, you just do as you are told unless you are told otherwise

If you ask to fly 330 or direct Detling or FL120, you don't get "cleared 330" or "cleared Detling" or "cleared FL120"?
#1871884
Ibra wrote:
Once airborne in controlled airspace, they give instructions which are clearances as far as I am aware?


Is you receive a “clearance”, once you accept it, you are expected to proceed in accordance with that clearance. For example “ Cleared to join controlled airspace at Clacton”. In this case you would proceed to towards Clacton and join CAS.

On the other hand, if you receive an “instruction” you are expected to comply IMMEDIATELY. For example “Fly heading 250” or “Descend Flight Level 140”.

The difference is subtle. See here for for a full explanation.

https://www.flyingstart.ca/FlightTraini ... R/10As.htm
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By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871958
Apologies, I’ve been away for a few hours.
On reflection, my previous post was a little ambiguous. On the ONE occasion when Swanwick did cooperate on the phone:
I was not given a clearance to join CAS.
I WAS told to “After take-off, route to WCO - remaining clear of CAS and contact London on xxx.xxx”.
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By JonathanB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871961
This is kind of what I would expect should happen. You really need to be identified (with Mode A code validated and Mode C altitude verified) by a radar unit before being given a clearance to join.
#1871984
JonathanB wrote:This is kind of what I would expect should happen. You really need to be identified (with Mode A code validated and Mode C altitude verified) by a radar unit before being given a clearance to join.

And if a radar unit was available after departure, there might be an extra caveat saying 'released via XXXX radar' but never an actual joining clearance so that if the pilot has radio failure before entry to CAS they should remain clear.
#1872046
chevvron wrote:And if a radar unit was available after departure, there might be an extra caveat saying 'released via XXXX radar' but never an actual joining clearance so that if the pilot has radio failure before entry to CAS they should remain clear.


You could also get radio failure while talking to “primary units” right before joining CAS? how does that differ from lost comms right after handover by “secondary units”?

Assuming no emergency, in both case you will have to RCAS (unless you have been EXPLICITLY instructed by airspace owner or on behalf), you are free to do whatever you wish: fly to destination/alternate routing outside controlled airspace, or land back/divert somewhere while outside airspace and phone call, or plug your handheld or cellphone…

If it’s lost comm & emergency, you save your skin first (but there are smart ways where you are unlikely to hurt or conflict with others)