Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1867234
The other day, I filed an airways flight plan then departed a farm strip, called London Info but they could not find the flight plan and suggested I called Doncaster (the nearest atc) who, after a little while, got me a squawk, gave me a clearance before putting me on to Scottish Control - many thanks allround :D

But it got me thinking ....what actually happened, did Doncaster manage to find my original flight plan (despite London Info not being able to) or did they just create one on the spot ? if so all they knew about me was callsign and my destination they didnt even ask the a/c type.

Any Ideas ? :D
By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867251
Perhaps I can offer a little insight into this situation.

I regularly file IFR departures from EGLM White Waltham. Whilst Waltham is a very busy airfield, it does not have a lot of IFR traffic and therefore does not have Pre-prepared SID’s or STAR’s.

On approx 80% of our IFR departures - we initially get the “sorry your flight plan can’t be found on the system- continue OCAS while we try to sort this out. 50% of the time they never “find” the flightplan and we are forced to continue the flight VFR.

A couple of years ago we had a visit to Swanick and we took the opportunity to ask the NATS flightplan team why such a high % of our IFR plans seem to be lost? The following is what we were told:
1. The NATS FP system is designed such that the operator picks from a list of pre-planned IFR routes that take aircraft from the departure airfield to the most appropriate point to enter CAS.
2. Obviously the major airports have their routes, but so too do smaller airports that have a lot of IFR traffic. Gloucester, Fairoaks, Blackbushe - and even Booker, Denham and Turweston are understood to have enough IFR traffic to have such Pre planned routes. The NATS operator simply has to scroll down the list and select the most appropriate route.
3. However when an IFR flightplan is submitted departing from anywhere without a Pre planned airways joining route, the operator is required to type the entire route into the system (rather than pick from a list). The operators also know that a very high percentage of these flights never actually take place, they are cancelled for weather or all manner of other reasons. For this reason, the operators will, in most instances, ignore these flight plans and elect to “do nothing until the aircraft is actually airborne” (since 95% of them never get airborne). It is also a 99% probability that he won’t be on shift and it will someone else’s problem. Then when you call you local ATSU requesting an airways join, your flightplan is not on their screen (Cos it has not been entered onto the system). If your local ATSU isn’t too busy, they may phone Swanick to ask about your plan. If the Swanick guys are not too busy, they might look up your plan and enter it onto the system. If your flight is several hundred miles long - or crossing into another country IFR, then they will most likely (but not always) enter your plan - and you will be given a CAS joining clearance. However this can take some time - and leaving Waltham, we rarely get to join CAS before either SAM, GWC, SFD or BIG. We have no choice but spend the first 20-30 minutes of the flight battling all the VFR obstacles enroute (eg getting a Farnborough crossing clearance, or threading through the Lasham gliders whilst staying east of the Solent CTA).

Recently, we have tried phoning Swanick just before off blocks time (EOBT) to request our airways joining routing and or our clearance. This has had intermittent success. It seems to depend on who answers the phone at Swanick. It worked a few times, but on the last couple of trips, Swanick told usey couldn’t help us - and advised us to phone Farnborough ATC. Phoning Farnborough has had 50% success. (1 out of 2). On the 2nd, Farnborough told us to call when airborne. We did as told, however we were past Sywell (VFR) before Farnborough advised that they couldn’t help and advised us to call London Info, who passed us to East Mids who eventually got us an airways join.

So in summary.
The UK IFR system is simply not geared up to support light GA operating IFR from small airfields.
Whether it works or not is very unpredictable and seems to depend largely on which operator picks up the phone.
Call me cynical, but since light GA doesn’t (generally) pay EnRoute airways charges, it is not surprising that NATS doesn’t afford us the same level of support as they offer to light business aviation and CAT.
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By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867255
The only time London Info has not opened an IFR Fpl for me from our remote airstrip was when they were so busy I couldn’t get a word in edge ways and I was fast approaching my airways joining waypoint .
Quick knob twiddle and RAF Wattisham kindly opened my Fpl in less than three minutes . :wink:
By welkyboy
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867256
How did you file the FPL? Whenever I’ve filed IFR plans they are automatically sent to Brussels who then either accept or reject, if accepted you are sent an ACK message
If you’re departing from a farm strip which doesn’t have a four letter ICAO code Brussels won’t have anywhere to send the message so it probably gets rejected and then no one is informed, if the FPL is ACKnowledged the details are passed onto the Departure airfield and the destination
By welkyboy
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867260
PeteSpencer wrote:Autorouter : been a user for years .Our ZZZZ strip is in the system and recognised in their database and autorouter validates the Fpl I enter : If it doesn’t validate they won’t send it off till you amend it or write a new Fpl .

So Eurocontrol rejections don’t happen .

There are conditions to joining Autrouter -they don’t like you buggering about practicing fpls you don’t intend to use.


My question was to the original poster.
#1867262
Since I started filing above FL90 sticking nearby SID & nearby STAR & flying above levels in SRD routes wholly in controlled airspace, I had no issues with I-FPL in UK, I also call by phone 5min before departure (thanks to Bose A20), this seems to work just fine

My first FL40 IFR flights were fiascos, they felt like flying on IFR clearances without having an FPL :lol: , especially when you land in France from UK without ATC and you call by phone to close it and someone on the phone tells you they can’t fetch it and no trace of it, AR tracking after the flight is very reassuring that FPL was alive :lol:


However, it’s never a dull moment and one will get surprises from time to time, it depends on who you call by phone and who you 1st talk to on radio, you get seamless experiences then one single one where it goes hectic, my last departure from a grass strip in UK to France early this month involved 5 frequencies & 5 squawks & 5 clearances in the first 15min but I personally love buttons pressing & passing messages :thumleft: maybe it was a punishment as I sent a last minute DLA message and someone in ATC felt this was a bad manners, I was flying an F-reg, this did not help :eye:
Last edited by Ibra on Wed Aug 25, 2021 10:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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By Chilli Monster
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867265
Top tip - if you’re going to work an ATC unit before joining CAS (in the OP’s, case, Doncaster) address the plan to them too.

If you use something like Rocketroute, Afpex, Eurofpl, there will be a facility to add extra addressees. So - EG**ZGZX means they’re guaranteed to get a copy. Most of these units use Copperchase Flight Plan Processing, which will produce a transit strip with your details on.

You’ll probably find that Doncaster found your plan by phoning the relevant airways sector, who would have had your plan details even if London info couldn’t find it.
#1867267
A couple of decades ago I wandered the globe at the helm of her majesty's 4 turbo-prop tramp steamers.
Never scheduled, flight plans were all ad-hoc.
'Can't find your flight plan' was a common refrain: you are not alone, simoon.
I came to the view that in the corner of every FIR was a small office dedicated to shredding flight plans.
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By Chilli Monster
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867269
allout wrote:A couple of decades ago I wandered the globe at the helm of her majesty's 4 turbo-prop tramp steamers.
Never scheduled, flight plans were all ad-hoc.
'Can't find your flight plan' was a common refrain: you are not alone, simoon.
I came to the view that in the corner of every FIR was a small office dedicated to shredding flight plans.


As a minion who used to address those plans the problem was often “johnny foreigner”, who didn’t realise a “ZP” flight plan was sent to them so they could address and transmit it. (In the days when it was nearly all done manually).

Amateurs!
#1867270
I still have these marked in my Google Map (aircraft & handheld), I called tower ATC with a handheld using my aircraft callsign asking if they have received my FPL and if they can help validating the route and maybe delay with 60min, I was topless in the beach holding a radio 8) , ATC were thinking I was a poor man sitting inside the aircraft in 46C deg heat in Spain waiting for someone in North Africa to open up the tower in a remote airport and take an inbound flight :lol:


Image
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#1867283
At our A/G airfield, under the LTMA, and close to a major airport, we obtain Airways joining instructions from Swanick almost every day. I have to say there is never a problem and, as soon as aircraft are airborne, they go to the allocated frequency and on their way. It has been like that for at least 10 years and I have never known a flight plan to get lost.

I suggest if departing from a strip you get the correct Swanick phone number (seems to change frequently) and obtain your joining instructions direct from them by phone ... just as we do.

Why go London Info?

The other reason they may have “lost” your flight plan is if you call or phone too early. They tell me it doesn’t show until 30 minutes before your departure time.
It also disappears if you don’t get airborne.
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By Lefty
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867300
pullup wrote:At our A/G airfield, under the LTMA, and close to a major airport, we obtain Airways joining instructions from Swanick almost every day. I have to say there is never a problem and, as soon as aircraft are airborne, they go to the allocated frequency and on their way. It has been like that for at least 10 years and I have never known a flight plan to get lost.

I suggest if departing from a strip you get the correct Swanick phone number (seems to change frequently) and obtain your joining instructions direct from them by phone ... just as we do.

Why go London Info?

The other reason they may have “lost” your flight plan is if you call or phone too early. They tell me it doesn’t show until 30 minutes before your departure time.
It also disappears if you don’t get airborne.


Which airfield ?
I suspect either Fairoaks, Denham or Stapleford, all of which have quite a lot of IFR traffic and thus NATS has Pre planned airways joining routes.
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