Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
#1867432
G-JWTP wrote:I like the FAA/USA system . Call the sector controller by phone on the ground in the club etc, and get a clearance that is valid for 30 mins. Walk out, preflight your trusty steed, take off and fly your clearance. Much, much easier.

G-JWTP


Yes it’s seamless airspace access but you won’t be able to go IFR into clouds until APP ATC has you on radar & radio & txp contact and they ensured you can have IFR separation where no TWR ATC is around :wink:

France does the same, you would call Nantes or Paris before departure, you get transponder code and 10min window to make radar and radio contact, clearance is something like “climb in VMC to FL70 to XXX” which is deep inside their D/A airspace but I understand, if you lost com/txp before making first contact while airborne you are supposed to leave controlled airspace, so going into clouds right after departure is not wise :D

In UK, you have seamless access to clouds but you won’t get cleared into airspace until you
are well identified & verified in front of the gates while airborne :lol:

I guess each system has it’s merits !
Last edited by Ibra on Thu Aug 26, 2021 7:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
#1867433
chevvron wrote:Certainly did for Farnborough; Copperchase was programmed to produce strips for all 6 airfields.


Programmed yes, as we did for Luton and Hatfield, but not those not programmed. Just wonder if the latest incarnation did it different.
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By 2Donkeys
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1867507
Ibra wrote:Yes it’s seamless airspace access but you won’t be able to go IFR into clouds until APP ATC has you on radar & radio & txp contact and they ensured you can have IFR separation where no TWR ATC is around :wink:


Not so. IFR Clearances with a 'clearance void after time' are commonplace from uncontrolled airfields in the US. Such a clearance allows entry into IMC or flight under IFR prior to positive radar contact.
#1867529
2Donkeys wrote:
Ibra wrote:Yes it’s seamless airspace access but you won’t be able to go IFR into clouds until APP ATC has you on radar & radio & txp contact and they ensured you can have IFR separation where no TWR ATC is around :wink:


Not so. IFR Clearances with a 'clearance void after time' are commonplace from uncontrolled airfields in the US. Such a clearance allows entry into IMC or flight under IFR prior to positive radar contact.

Similar in the UK; the transponder code 'drops out' if it's not used within a certain period (may be 30 min maybe more, I'm not sure.)
#1867544
2Donkeys wrote:
Ibra wrote:Yes it’s seamless airspace access but you won’t be able to go IFR into clouds until APP ATC has you on radar & radio & txp contact and they ensured you can have IFR separation where no TWR ATC is around :wink:


Not so. IFR Clearances with a 'clearance void after time' are commonplace from uncontrolled airfields in the US. Such a clearance allows entry into IMC or flight under IFR prior to positive radar contact.


So you can fly in clouds without (yet) establishing radio comms & radar contact with ATC? (as long as you have IFR clearance on ground and you depart in your allocated time slot)

What is the local wisdom for the (unlikely) lost comms in clouds before your first airborne radio/radar contact on that IFR clearance? fly departure as cleared then the route as filed?
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By Chilli Monster
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#1867677
vintage ATCO wrote:
Chilli Monster wrote:Most of these units use Copperchase Flight Plan Processing, which will produce a transit strip with your details on.


Do they do that these days? The system we had at Luton, and I am talking 20 odd years ago and when we had a functioning APP unit


A technique I often used at East Mids / Nottingham - I’d see the Copperchase line for my filed plan before leaving the Approach room at East Mids to fly from Nottingham :D
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By 2Donkeys
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#1867680
Ibra wrote:
So you can fly in clouds without (yet) establishing radio comms & radar contact with ATC? (as long as you have IFR clearance on ground and you depart in your allocated time slot)


Yes

What is the local wisdom for the (unlikely) lost comms in clouds before your first airborne radio/radar contact on that IFR clearance? fly departure as cleared then the route as filed?


Yes. Your CRAFT clearance contains all you need to do just that - so if you were cleared as filed you fly the filed route, or any modified route you received in your clearance.
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#1868017
How is a FPL and the aircraft on SSR coordinated? Using the registration/ ICAO hex ID?

And the FPL goes into a flight plan database that the SSR uses to get FPL data?

So shouldn't anyone who can see your transponder signal have chapter and verse about what you are up to?

You can probably tell that I've never submitted a flight plan. None the less isn't this what all this is supposed to do automatically?

Chris
#1868058
How is a FPL and the aircraft on SSR coordinated? Using the registration/ ICAO hex ID?


For airways traffic, the UK is part of CCAMS https://www.eurocontrol.int/tool/centralised-code-assignment-and-management-system

And the FPL goes into a flight plan database that the SSR uses to get FPL data?

Yes. Like most states though, the UK uses the Brussels database to make it's own local copy of the relevant parts of it for use with the UK's own ATC systems. These systems then use the SSR code (allocated by CCAMS) to link it with the filed FPL.

So shouldn't anyone who can see your transponder signal have chapter and verse about what you are up to?

Not necessarily, unless they have access to IFPS, although there are other ways.
#1871549
Interesting.... And a good post by Lefty a bit ago.

Recently started doing single pilot ops in a PC-12 after years driving a Bus worldwide. Most of the time, everything is seamless, even the VFR-IFR launch. We use Rocket Route for all the planning and the app is easy peasy.

Usually say to the last controller when inbound - I will be outbound in 40 mins, is this a good frequency for clearance. All fine thus far until today.

Inbound to Thruxton, got an unusual hand off to Solent, which we hadn't done before - usually leave controlled airspace by descent and coordinate with Boscombe. Got a weird route in, but it was OK.

Outbound, called 134.125 which was my last inbound and asked for my clearance - spot on time, all confirmed by RR.

Got a right palaver - We can't issue the clearance, call Farnborough. They said - HUH ???? Call London Info. Meanwhile, I am circling Greenham Common at 2000' burning diesel - how ironic.

London Info eventually gave me a climb and join clearance, squawk and - oh call London on 134.125 :evil:

There has to be a more consistent system, so if anyone has suggestions - I am all ears ...... :thumleft:
#1871622
GrahamB wrote:
Trent772 wrote:There has to be a more consistent system, so if anyone has suggestions - I am all ears ...... :thumleft:

Call ATC Ops at Swanwick on 023 8040 1110/1102 to get your squawk and clearance before you depart?


I will give that a whirl next time, thanks. As the flight plan is submitted by Rocket Route, I presume it goes to a centralised system there.