Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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User avatar
By MichaelP
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1866773
Do autopilots have their own gyros? Mine hasn't worked for about 20 years and actually I have no idea how they work!

Autopilots used to get their ‘gyro’ information from the Turn Coordinator.
Not many older autopilots in GA light aeroplanes work, or work properly.
Even the KAP140 in the DA42 I used to fly tended to impart a gentle hunting ‘dutch’ roll.

Newer autopilots get their info from AHRS, and radio navigation aids.

I was very impressed over twenty years ago by the rock steady autopilot in the TB10. It was much better than hand flying in turbulence, but at that time it was subject to human input error as it bounced of a line and headed northwest rather than continue towards Norwich.

In Canada for your IR renewal you are expected to engage the autopilot. It is essential to the safe conduct of single pilot IFR... If it works properly.

The autopilot in the Lancair 320 ran off the combined turn coordinator thingamajig in the panel.
It wasn’t engaged, but passing Roswell the gyro thingamajig went haywire and the Grand Rapids PFD turned black. The MFD on the right side still worked and I selected it to alternate PFD mode.
A slippery over sensitive tricky aeroplane, the Lancair 320 would soon have a loss of control in IMC... After a reset, I decided not to trust it if I encountered IMC.
What is it about Roswell?
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By Pilot H
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1866779
NDB_hold wrote:
Rob L wrote:
Pilot H wrote:Using the phrase "Flight Critical" simplifies it and removes the need for a controller to know or understand the terminology or the technical aspects of light aircraft, and cuts to the chase...

"I have lost a flight critical instrument, or I am in a flight critical situation due to cloud, icing etc is one that AOPA USA have advocated - partly as a result of this:

https://youtu.be/7sfHlzv6Rlk


I'm sorry, Pilot H, please correct me, but I believe you are wrong.

"flight critical" or as elsewhere used, "fuel emergency" are useless phrases.
The ICAO terms MAYDAY (thrice) or PANPAN (thrice) should be used throughout the aviation world; not only sent by those in emergency/distress situations (respectively) but received and acted upon by those on the ground.

Rob



These phrases don't replace PANPAN or MAYDAY, they simply convey the "nature" of the emergency. The idea being that having declared a situation to a controller who is unfamiliar with the systems on a light aircraft, and using the phrase "flight critical due to loss of instruments" trumps "I have a vacuum failure" or "flight critical due to partial power loss with my single engine" trumps "I have a rough running magneto"

Imagine the controller has no idea about light aircraft systems before using technical terminology to describe the situation. Because, increasingly, and through no fault of their own; they don't.
Rob P liked this
#1866783
Pilot H wrote:Imagine the controller has no idea about light aircraft systems before using technical terminology to describe the situation. Because, increasingly, and through no fault of their own; they don't.


I am pretty certain controllers aren't banned from turning up at a flying school and taking a course of lessons, paid from their higher than average earnings. What you actually meant by "through no fault of their own" was "because it's no longer a freebie".

Rob P
JAFO liked this
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By Pilot H
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1866787
Rob P wrote:I am pretty certain controllers aren't banned from turning up at a flying school and taking a course of lessons, paid from their higher than average earnings. What you actually meant by "through no fault of their own" was "because it's no longer a freebie".

Rob P


It's a bit like the fact that upset training (Fully developed spins) are no longer a part of the training syllabus. It doesn't preclude a student for taking extra training, on their own dollar, but it makes for a "self selecting" minority.
Rob P liked this
#1866853
Rob P wrote:
I am pretty certain controllers aren't banned from turning up at a flying school and taking a course of lessons, paid from their higher than average earnings. What you actually meant by "through no fault of their own" was "because it's no longer a freebie".


Even when it was a full freebie it was always a minority who kept it current, and very few who got a partial freebie went on to complete the full PPL. On my course of eighteen who got the partial freebie, I can think of one who subsequently went on to complete a PPL at a later date… me.

And as for more recent times, the cynic in me might think that mentioning a strong interest in aviation during the recruitment process would be an impediment rather than an advantage. I’m sure that wasn’t really the case, but as an instructor/examiner it was just how it felt.
Rob P liked this
#1866876
Rob P wrote:
Pilot H wrote:Imagine the controller has no idea about light aircraft systems before using technical terminology to describe the situation. Because, increasingly, and through no fault of their own; they don't.


I am pretty certain controllers aren't banned from turning up at a flying school and taking a course of lessons, paid from their higher than average earnings. What you actually meant by "through no fault of their own" was "because it's no longer a freebie".

Rob P


Does this mean I should be spending all my ‘higher than average’ salary on ATPLs, Multi Crew Courses, LOFT etc so I know all the systems in 787s, A350s, A220s (nee C Series), etc etc?

ATCOs can’t be expected to understand all the technical terms out there because there’s so much of it, and in some cases different manufacturers use different terms for the same widget, and may even use the same term for different widgets.

So no, it’d great if pilots could tell ATC the effects of the failure, just as we would tell you folks the effects of any issue with ATC.

Not sure many pilots would know what I meant if I said the IAW alarm of the RIMCAS system has failed. Far better for me to say that I might send you around earlier than usual on a CAT3 approach due to a radar subsystem failure.
townleyc, Ben K, Talkdownman liked this
#1871391
Rob P wrote:
Pilot H wrote:Imagine the controller has no idea about light aircraft systems before using technical terminology to describe the situation. Because, increasingly, and through no fault of their own; they don't.


I am pretty certain controllers aren't banned from turning up at a flying school and taking a course of lessons, paid from their higher than average earnings. What you actually meant by "through no fault of their own" was "because it's no longer a freebie".

Rob P

Probably nothing to prevent an aspiring driver turning up at an ATC training establishment to receive a short course of, say 30 hours, to see what happens on the ground based side of the system. Get real and, yes, I have held qualifications on both sides.
#1871413
Londlostdriver wrote: Get real and, yes, I have held qualifications on both sides.

Which is as it should be. Because as we all know if a pilot ****s up they die. If an atco ****s up, the pilot dies.

I can't think of an example where thirty hours atc training would save my life, but presumably you, being 'real' can think of lots?

Rob P
Flyin'Dutch', Sooty25, skydriller and 1 others liked this
#1871550
Rob P wrote:
Londlostdriver wrote: Get real and, yes, I have held qualifications on both sides.

Which is as it should be. Because as we all know if a pilot ****s up they die. If an atco ****s up, the pilot dies.

I can't think of an example where thirty hours atc training would save my life, but presumably you, being 'real' can think of lots?

Rob P

Can do. One of the most important lessons in my experience was to let the low houred or inexperienced pilot (or I hesitate to say some sky-gods) that they shouldn’t be frightened of ATC. Equally, controllers have a responsibility to ensure the safe and efficient conduct of flight but I am sure that we can both think of cases where a controller has made life difficult rather than help but very rarely, again in my experience, is this because of a negative attitude. From a pilot’s perspective, admitting things are getting difficult and asking for help early enough can be the difference between life and death but Pan, Pan or Mayday aren’t often heard on accident tapes.
I have heard the “pilots die, controllers don’t “ comment more than once but I cannot recall any UK aircraft accident in the last 50 years or more when a civilian controller was held responsible but maybe I have missed some. Been to far too many inquests and funerals of ga pilots already. Each has had a long lasting effect on me. I can only guess at how devastating they were for the relatives, friends and colleagues of those involved. We should surely all be working together to prevent as many as we can in future.
I can think of lots of examples where pilot/controller education could have enhanced flight safety which is why I always encouraged meetings between the groups but feel that this is not the place to air them.
L21B, klutz liked this
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By Paul_Sengupta
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1871564
Londlostdriver wrote:I cannot recall any UK aircraft accident in the last 50 years or more when a civilian controller was held responsible


Maybe the solo student who died at Southend because he was asked to orbit to allow an arrival? It was after this accident that the student prefix was added. There had been the "tyro" prefix before, but that wasn't widely used.

https://www.standard.co.uk/hp/front/solo-teenage-pilot-died-as-he-tried-to-avoid-a-faster-plane-6597486.html
#1871574
I was troubled for years following a helicopter crash which took the life of the pilot and a Football Club owner over Cheshire.

There is a route from the top of the Low Level Corridor all the way to Birmingham at 1000' following the M6.

However, the controller warned the pilot of high ground ahead and he climbed into cloud, lost it and.....
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