Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1864860
Sorry to shatter your illusions Lefty, but I work at Yeovilton and when it (and other military bases) are closed they are closed. There is nobody on standby incase you have an emergency. Yeovilton is opening late at the moment due to reduced staffing levels as most of the station is on summer leave, but it needs to have some reduced activity to facilitate training, which is why it opens late and continues straight into night flying.

A gentle cloud break or following ATC vectors is all well and good if you have instrument experience and a suitably equipped aircraft. There are plenty of pilots around who have only ever done the instrument appreciation lesson on their PPL and never flown on instruments since and/or their aircraft isn't suitably equipped for instrument flight.
Rob P, Dave W, Dominie and 2 others liked this
#1864862
I would expect a CAP10 to have an adequate instrument fit - what used to be called a blind flying panel, now a six pack.

You'd also think the pilot of an aerobatic type wouldn't have much issue with unusual attitudes and recovery from them

But we are now solidly in the territory of the 'S word', so I shall shut up.

Rob P
pullup liked this
#1864870
Rob P wrote:
You'd also think the pilot of an aerobatic type wouldn't have much issue with unusual attitudes and recovery from them.

Rob P


Yes...if VMC, not necessarily in solid IMC

The last 10 seconds of the posted ADSB trace shows a descent rate of about 4000 ft per minute ...and a 90 degree turn....

Perhaps a new lesson to understand is that the Navy have block leave in August. So do not to rely on the usually very helpful facilities from Plymouth Mil, Yeovilton, Culdose etc. Also reduced Met facilities and also reduced LARS etc.
By johnm
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864874
@JAFO wrote
Which, of course, is a way to ensure that we never will comprehend anyone's thought processes but our own.


Normally I'd be extremely interested but when the Daily Express is involved....... :D
brentford77 liked this
#1864875
Always worth remembering that in the current world of cost being more important than value the average air traffic controller has zero experience of flying a light aircraft, or indeed any aircraft, in VMC or IMC (inadvertent or otherwise).

All they may have is some theoretical training or not always very realistic ATC simulator training for dealing with such a scenario, which may or may not translate very well to dealing with the real thing.

So certainly critique ATC’s actions, maybe once facts are known anyway, but also bear in mind they are not necessarily particularly well prepared themselves regrettably.
johnm, AndyR, Shoestring Flyer and 7 others liked this
#1864918
And if I spoke to Exeter, and asked them for vectors, I would be very surprised if they vectored me to somewhere else that was closed at the time. I would expect them to guide me onto their own instrument approach, unless I declared my intentions to be otherwise. What happened in this case, however, is, as yet, unknown.
riverrock liked this
#1864922
I’d just like to say, that although I can’t speak for any non-NATS units, the NATS units that provide ATSOCAS have ‘PPL lost in cloud with terrain in close proximity’ scenarios come up pretty regularly in annual (and in fact at the moment more like every few months) refresher training.

I know the Farnborough controllers discuss, train for, and are faced by this regularly; I’m often regaled by them with tales of those who try and find the gaps in the South Downs to squeeze under the cloud to get out to the S coast and then become unsure of their position while descending with the cloud base. Those whom I know I think have had a few years taken off their lives while watching and working this sort of thing.

In this particular case (as in any other) let’s not make any assumptions about any of the actors involved.
MikeB, Lefty, johnm and 7 others liked this
By L21B
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1864947
A long time ago, I was the only ATCO on duty at a large south of England airport on a Saturday evening.

I received a call from D & D asking for assistance as they could not find a lost aircraft on radar (late 1980s - primary return only available).

He was transferred to my frequency and indicated, on DF, that he was somewhere to the ENE of Bournemouth (oops, given it away now).

He was a C150 who had departed somewhere near Doncaster and had planned to land at Southampton.

Southampton was closed on a Saturday evening.

He was on top of a layer of stratus and had been flying for 3 and a half hours (do the maths).

There was a strong south-westerly wind and it would be getting dark shortly.

He sounded calm but I honestly think that he would have flown around until the engine had stopped (fairly shortly obviously).

I had provided DF for Bournemouth but could not see anything on our fairly limited radar (I was a radar qualified approach controller).

This suggested that he was some distance away from Bournemouth as, at the stated altitude of 2000’, I would have seen him within 20 miles range of Bournemouth.

The RN Wessex from Portland (those were the days!) had been scrambled and was arriving in the airport overhead and tracking out on the last known QDR.

I suggested to the pilot that if he saw a gap in the clouds then he should attempt a descent through it and complete a controlled landing in an open space (anyone got any better ideas?).

10 minutes later he suddenly stated that he saw a gap in the clouds and he was descending through it - his transmissions started to fade and then disappeared completely.

A very uncomfortable 40 minutes later, D & D called and informed me that the Cessna had been found in a field near Petersfield - occupant unharmed and the aircraft upright and in one piece.

Deep relief.

I locked up the control tower at Bournemouth and decided to stop at the Avon Causeway pub on the way home for a pint.

The pilot of the C150 was fortunate as he was talking to an ATCO who was also a current FI at a local flying club.

I met an ATCO at Aberdeen Airport a couple of years later who had had a similar experience with an aircraft that was stuck in poor weather near Inverness - the outcome wasn’t as fortunate.
Rob P, JAFO, T6Harvard liked this
#1864952
There was a time NATS controllers received a PPL as part of their training, plus a small annual allowance to help maintain currency.

Then that was reduced to fifteen hours of training, focussed on going solo then some ATC related flights with whatever hours remained. If the trainee controller already had a PPL, the fifteen hours could be used for adding another rating, such as the IMCR.

Then that was reduced to nothing.

Cost over value.

If really lucky there may be a current GA pilot/controller involved in an ATC training session, but they are not that common these days. So with the best will in the world the norm for ATC tabletop discussions or simulator training for scenarios such as this unfortunate event are at best likely the partially sighted leading the partially sighted, with probably zero actual experience of what the pilot is looking at on the instruments in front of them or feeling in their senses.

Which, if you think about it, could actually be quite import to appreciate.

(I can think of incidents involving larger aircraft where the pilots tried to tell ATC the issues they were facing, but struggled to get the implications across because of the lack of knowledge and appreciation on the ground).

Regrettably, ATC training has been somewhat dumbed down from the fairly well rounded experience it once was. Generally this is not a significant problem, and indeed some irrelevant stuff desperately needed removing, but the processes that may possibly mitigate are not always given the priority they deserve and every so often inadequacies are highlighted*.

* This is a general observation and not directly related to the incident that began this thread.
Rob P, JAFO liked this
#1864957
I have been in the occasional dire situation.

I have sorted out most of them myself.

Once Manston ATC (remember them?) were a great help.

Train the guys behind the mike properly. I envy the thought of their getting for free what has cost me hard-earned.

But it's an investment I don't begrudge.

Rob P
kanga liked this
#1864971
Open/Closed

I've not read the details on this incident, but I'd sooner have a nearby 'closed' strip of tarmac in VMC than be vectored through bad weather over high ground to an open one.

If your life is in danger put it down on a large area of tarmac or grass, normal usage open/closed status is completely irrelevant.
Cessna571, JAFO, rf3flyer liked this
#1865004
Charles Hunt wrote:Open/Closed

I've not read the details on this incident, but I'd sooner have a nearby 'closed' strip of tarmac in VMC than be vectored through bad weather over high ground to an open one.

If your life is in danger put it down on a large area of tarmac or grass, normal usage open/closed status is completely irrelevant.


I agree, if you have no other better option then put it down even if it’s closed and deal with the issues after you’re safely on the ground. I had to make an emergency landing at Wattisham when it was closed once.

I suspect in this particular case Yeovilton wasn’t his best option being closed and him stuck above the cloud/IMC.
#1865008
I agree, if you have no other better option then put it down even if it’s closed and deal with the issues after you’re safely on the ground. I had to make an emergency landing at Wattisham when it was closed once.


Hypothetically speaking it may be that putting your aircraft down ANYWHERE if you’re badly caught out by weather is infinitely preferable to some of the alternative options and eventual conclusions?
#1865011
A4 Pacific wrote:Hypothetically speaking it may be that putting your aircraft down ANYWHERE if you’re badly caught out by weather is infinitely preferable to some of the alternative options and eventual conclusions?

Therein lies the difficulty; the may be can only be confirmed with hindsight. No one opts to continue in the knowledge they will CFIT. :(
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