Primarily for general aviation discussion, but other aviation topics are also welcome.
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#1866694
Andrew Sinclair wrote:I have had a couple of vac pump failures in IMC on 6-pack aircraft, in both cases the DI wandered first. and in both cases the aircraft was properly trimmed; the first time S&L and the second time in the climb. Makes life a lot easier if the aircraft is in trim!

Both occasions were no drama really. On the second occasion, I was OCAS and climbing towards CAS and so told the ATSU and they just came back with a clearance :thumleft: As it turned out I levelled off VMC and OCAS.
D


I had a vacuum pump failure whilst doing a procedural ILS at Calais. In IMC.

Had it happened earlier we would have been a statistic, fortunately we became VMC

Vacuum pump failures in IMC are a dire emergency, not so in VMC.
#1866715
pullup wrote:Vacuum pump failures in IMC are a dire emergency, not so in VMC.


Both mine were in IMC, these situations need managing expeditiously that is true and they are not such an issue at all in VMC,

Losing critical flight instruments during an IAP becomes more of an issue, my point was that if you are trimmed out correctly they can be managed effectively without becoming a dire emergency.

In the case of an IAP having a failure of this nature on the final approach path/track flying the RoD would be less of an issue than on the intermediate phase of the approach because on the latter the aircraft is relatively low are still turns and aircraft configuration changes to be made.

Something to consider in the approach brief…
#1866724
Rob L wrote:
Pilot H wrote:Using the phrase "Flight Critical" simplifies it and removes the need for a controller to know or understand the terminology or the technical aspects of light aircraft, and cuts to the chase...

"I have lost a flight critical instrument, or I am in a flight critical situation due to cloud, icing etc is one that AOPA USA have advocated - partly as a result of this:

https://youtu.be/7sfHlzv6Rlk


I'm sorry, Pilot H, please correct me, but I believe you are wrong.

"flight critical" or as elsewhere used, "fuel emergency" are useless phrases.
The ICAO terms MAYDAY (thrice) or PANPAN (thrice) should be used throughout the aviation world; not only sent by those in emergency/distress situations (respectively) but received and acted upon by those on the ground.

Rob

I think you’re misunderstanding the point of that video (I agree about using ICAO phrases) - in that case the controller didn’t understand the jargon 'partial panel' and didn’t realise how much harder it made life for the pilot. Hence the recommendation.
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By Flyin'Dutch'
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1866729
I think that @Rob L is making the point that if you end up with a partial panel in IMC the only appropriate phraseology is a MAYDAY, or when in the possession of large cahunas, PANPAN.

Not the time or the place for niceties.

There are some other 'good' videos on that AOPA US site which illustrate that amply.
Sooty25 liked this
#1866736
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:Anyone considering flying in IMC should put on the top of their Xmas wishlist a non vacuum AI.


.. or, for slow bimblers, use a venturi tube system ? I suppose they can go wrong, too :?
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User avatar
By gasman
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1866741
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:I think that @Rob L is making the point that if you end up with a partial panel in IMC the only appropriate phraseology is a MAYDAY, or when in the possession of large cahunas, PANPAN.


I did my 14th IRr renewal recently with an examiner who had never met me.

As he covered up the AI and DI he said ‘vacuum failure’ - I immediately engaged the autopilot and said I was declaring a pan.

The examiner was bemused and said to continue hand flying . I flew partial panel well then pointed out my standby electric AI that he couldn’t see from P2 seat.

At this point he said ‘you seem to have thought this out- take me home’.

I passed!
davenuk, Dominie, kanga and 3 others liked this
By TopCat
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1866760
gasman wrote:As he covered up the AI and DI he said ‘vacuum failure’ - I immediately engaged the autopilot and said I was declaring a pan.

Do autopilots have their own gyros? Mine hasn't worked for about 20 years and actually I have no idea how they work!
#1866762
gasman wrote:
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:I think that @Rob L is making the point that if you end up with a partial panel in IMC the only appropriate phraseology is a MAYDAY, or when in the possession of large cahunas, PANPAN.


I did my 14th IRr renewal recently with an examiner who had never met me.

As he covered up the AI and DI he said ‘vacuum failure’ - I immediately engaged the autopilot and said I was declaring a pan.

The examiner was bemused and said to continue hand flying . I flew partial panel well then pointed out my standby electric AI that he couldn’t see from P2 seat.

At this point he said ‘you seem to have thought this out- take me home’.

I passed!

This afternoon (DV) I have my IMCR renewal and the first one where I have been allowed - encouraged - to have SD running as well. That is how I actually fly in IMC: GTN650 for primary Nav, SD secondary, and SD plog DR as fallback if the GPSs all go down at once. (Plus EasyVFR on my phone…)
By rdfb
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1866765
TopCat wrote:Do autopilots have their own gyros? Mine hasn't worked for about 20 years and actually I have no idea how they work!


Mine is connected to the turn coordinator for rate-of-turn information, to static air for rate-of-altitude-change information, and to the HSI for the heading bug to detect heading deviation when heading hold is enabled. That's it. To fly straight and level it actuates the ailerons to minimise rate-of-turn, actuates the elevator to minimise rate-of-altitude-change, and trims to minimise elevator pressure. Thus if flying out of balance, the wings won't be level.

So it doesn't have its own gyro, but uses a gyro that's electric and is therefore immune to vacuum failure.
User avatar
By GrahamB
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1866766
Flyin'Dutch' wrote:I would not have expected anything else from a gasman.

Don't start without plan B and C!

You can be my wingman.

It does raise a question as to whether recovery from undesired situations should be tested for the aircraft you happen to be flying, or the less well-equipped one you might be flying next time.
User avatar
By PeteSpencer
FLYER Club Member  FLYER Club Member
#1866770
TopCat wrote:
gasman wrote:As he covered up the AI and DI he said ‘vacuum failure’ - I immediately engaged the autopilot and said I was declaring a pan.

Do autopilots have their own gyros? Mine hasn't worked for about 20 years and actually I have no idea how they work!


The 50 year old legacy autopilot (Century 3) in our Arrow has just been repaired after a year's down time and head scratching by avionics guy.

It has no gyro but takes a feed from the AH:It is switchable from Nav 1 (Garmin 430W to nav 2 (Narco 800).

It also has a simple 'heading mode', following the heading bug each time you move it.

It is strictly a wing leveller only and is quite handy when yer hands are full being bumped about in IMC, or on long boring trips down the middle of France..................

But I'd much rather have an all electrical system and a 3 axis autopilot- but this ain't gonna happen in my lifetime. :roll:

Peter
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